Just been kicked out of a group for objecting to being referred to as my reproductive organs

[Gerlais]

Group on Facebook. I was referred to as a “uterus owner”. I objected to this. I’m now banned from the group for being transphobic. Everyone piled on me and if I wasn’t kicked out I would have been leaving anyway. I don’t care what other people want to be called but I will not be referred to as my reproductive organs!! It’s not transphobic to want to be referred to as a woman if you were in fact born female and wish to remain a woman? surely?? Or AIBU?

No one has stopped @Gerlais calling herself a woman, or insisted that she must call herself a uterus owner instead.

Splitting hairs MurielSpriggs, Gerlais objected to being referred to as a uterus owner and was kicked out of the group for objecting, so she was unable to refer to herself as a woman to the group because the group refused to respect her request and deemed she must use the dehumanising language they decided on. Sounds like insistence to me.

MushMonster I do not mind about self ID, I understand that it can be missused, but I believe most people going for the self ID will genuinely want it, and mean it.

You understand it will be misused and yet still support it, so women who are harmed by this misuse are just collateral damage then? What are going to say to them "Oh dear, never mind?"

I, in principle, would not mind to share toilet or changing room with someone identifying as a woman, who behaves like a woman

How does someone behave like a woman? Is there a particular set of rules or behaviour that determine this? If so, do share as in my experience women behave in many different and unique ways, because they are individuals not some homogenous mass.

You may chose to share toilets with men who identify as women but you cannot consent for me or any other woman which is what you are attempting to do. My 'no' overrides your 'yes' unless you believe that a woman saying 'no' should not have her 'no' hear or accepted?

Your 'yes' to men self identifying into women's spaces like toilets means that many women will not be able to use the facilities that are supposed to be there for their use, what happens to them? Do you care?

Single sex spaces and services for women and girls were set up because women and girls needed them and wanted them, those needs have not gone away and it is not up to you to give them away on the basis of being kind to men and by attempting to do so you are being incredibly unkind and unfair to women and girls.

Try putting women and girls first for once.

Do you guys all DM each other and plan to post this stuff? “What can we post that is provoking enough to seem reasonable in an aibu”, as a group jump on anyone who disagrees so others who might disagree don’t speak thus ‘proving’ that the majority of women think like you. They don’t.

Most people are kind and don’t think kindness is something to sneer at. Like you say most people know someone trans now and they know they are not bogey monsters. It’s Sarah down the road or your best mates daughter. I’d be more inclined to listen to you talking about the erosion of female rights if you had a decent attitude towards trans people. Rape is beyond awful but we can’t blame trans women. The. Conviction rates are appalling, the way women are treat is disgusting. But it’s not the fault of transwomen.

It’s difficult to respond because I’m not an expert and there are lots of people with various levels of hostility so yeah you can easily collectively pick holes in what I say. It doesn’t mean you’re right.

Is 97% not a majority?

"Rape is beyond awful but we can’t blame trans women. The. Conviction rates are appalling, the way women are treat is disgusting. But it’s not the fault of transwomen"

Who has said that it is? No one on this thread and I've not seen it on mumsnet.

Not all men are rapists but all rapists are men. If you allow any man who self-identifies as a woman into women's spaces more women and girls will be raped and assaulted. It's not transwomen's fault, no. There are some transwomen who are in prison for rape and sexual assault just as there are men in prison for the same thing. That doesn't mean we hate men and transwomen. But there are times amd places when women need protecting from the risk of being assaulted by men or transwomen (or penis owners if you prefer that language). That's just fact.

Do you guys all DM each other and plan to post this stuff?

No

Most people are kind and don’t think kindness is something to sneer at

Yes, and I don't like the unkindness inflicted on the OP by the FB group when she was trying to discuss iron deficiency.

I am genuinely more scared for the little trans girl at my sons school than i am sharing space with a transwoman. My heart breaks thinking of her going off to school without her mum to protect her knowing that there are people who despise her because of who she is.

@Wobblyhousehunt - stop it please, no one despises that child.

Do you have daughters?

How is you not wanting to be referred to as a uterus owner in anyway trans phobic. I don't consider myself to be stupid but I don't get it
All piling on one person and ostracizing them, I'd call that on line bullying.

I’m going to assume you are being genuine 😊 I don’t think not wanting to be called a uterus owner is transphobic. I think the post was a dog whistle with a subtle political message that many of the people posting here know and understand. Many of the following comments were transphobic. I have met many trans people and none of them have called me a uterus owner.

@RaisedByPangolins

Get yourself over the feminism threads and to see even more of this batshittery on a daily basis. The world has gone nuts. Oh sorry shouldn’t say that as it’s probably offensive to people with nut allergies.

I assume you've reported the 'transphobic' posts to MNHQ, @Wobblyhousehunt ? They take actual transphobia very seriously. Though it could be argued that your view of 'transphobia' is very broad and includes factual biological statements and events.

Your last post seems to imply that the OP (and quite a few posters) is liar or a troll - again MNHQ tend to take troll hunting quite seriously.

In passing, I'm not sure the phrase 'dog whistle' is massively well known in regards to this debate, apart from by TRA's, MRA's and incels on Twitter.

I’d be more inclined to listen to you talking about the erosion of female rights if you had a decent attitude towards trans people. Rape is beyond awful but we can’t blame trans women. The. Conviction rates are appalling, the way women are treat is disgusting. But it’s not the fault of transwomen

I've a perfectly decent attitude to trans people, thanks. I treat people with the same respect they treat me, those who do not respect my and any other woman's right to say 'no' to males in female spaces, who refer to me as a cervix haver or uterus owner neither get nor deserve my respect.

Conviction rates for rape are appalling, the number of rape cases that actually make it to trial is horrendously low, yet transwomen have been tried and convicted of rape and other sexual offences and have subsequently been jailed. So, no, not all transwomen are rapists or sexual offenders but some are and how does one tell the difference?

snarky:
•critical or mocking in an indirect or sarcastic way.
🙄

Yep, sometimes language and words have meaning.
When an aim of an ideology is to impose a change literally existing as a sex class can be a challenge.

The revision of language around sex = gender to gender being a emotional knowledge which supersedes biology is interesting.
The push to change language is "be kind" because changing a word really has no consequence.
Why not make small changes?
transwoman and women
becomes
trans women and women
becomes
trans women and cis women

If trans women are women, because they feel it in their brain, their lived experience as a woman must be more important than their sex.

Even if you don't agree be kind and accept that some males should have a right to access female's single sex spaces and services.

How could any kind person object?
Hummmm....
🤷🏼‍♀️

Wobblyhousehunt
Do you guys all DM each other and plan to post this stuff?

A conspiracy theory emerges.
🙄

“What can we post that is provoking enough to seem reasonable in an aibu”, as a group jump on anyone who disagrees so others who might disagree don’t speak thus ‘proving’ that the majority of women think like you.

A "No debate" conspiracy theory develops
Not as exciting as the Russians funding the religious far right Americans funding right wing extremism on MN
🙃

They don’t.

Conform to the ideology, dont you want to be like all the other body part people?
🤷🏼‍♀️

Most people are kind and don’t think kindness is something to sneer at.

Body part people who don't conform, well actually comply, with the demand are not kind
🙄

Like you say most people know someone trans now and they know they are not bogey monsters.

Please politely ignoring the likelihood of the even distribution of assholes within all male and female populations
🤷🏼‍♀️

It’s Sarah down the road or your best mates daughter.

Hmmm... is that Sarah & daughter with a penis or a vulva?
Did I spot leverage too?
🙄

I’d be more inclined to listen to you talking about the erosion of female rights

Attempted empathy noted
👍

if you had a decent attitude towards trans people.

Body parts people must comply before negotiations begin.
🙄

Rape is beyond awful but we can’t blame trans women.

Subtle as a brick, people with penis who identify as women can't be rapists
🤐

The. Conviction rates are appalling, the way women are treat is disgusting.

Empathy noted again
👍

But it’s not the fault of transwomen.

Reason for empathy noted
I will believe that only people with penis who identify as men can be rapists.
🙄

It’s difficult to respond because I’m not an expert

Well now, body part people confess, who has never used that line to their advantage??
😏

and there are lots of people with various levels of hostility

Is that an everybody hates me wail?
🤷🏼‍♀️

so yeah you can easily collectively pick holes in what I say.

The dangling carrott, an almost "you have some valid points" statement
🙄

It doesn’t mean you’re right.

The I am right you are wrong statement.
🤷🏼‍♀️

I am genuinely more scared for the little trans girl at my sons school than i am sharing space with a transwoman. My heart breaks thinking of her going off to school without her mum to protect her knowing that there are people who despise her because of who she is.

Now that's proper emotional leverage right there. Pink princess back story, build up, and all.
👍

I’m going to assume you are being genuine 😊

Be my kind friend because others are not "being genuine" with a happy but embarrass to be happy emoji.
🙄

I don’t think not wanting to be called a uterus owner is transphobic.

Great, so not everything is transphobic
👍

I think the post was a dog whistle with a subtle political message that many of the people posting here know and understand.

Did someone use the words "dog whistle"?
Is that a new way to call one a bitch or is it claiming to read between the lines without supplying supporting proof?
🤷🏼‍♀️

Many of the following comments were transphobic.

Great, so not everything is transphobic
Dear Reader,
MNHQ Is more than happy to remove offending posts
👍

I have met many trans people and none of them have called me a uterus owner.

My lived experience trumps your lived experience. But anyways I have not accepted your lived experience so your lived experience is irrelevant.
🤷🏼‍♀️

You said:

No one has stopped @Gerlais calling herself a woman, or insisted that she must call herself a uterus owner instead.

When that's precisely what they have done.

I’m not an expert

Can't disagree there.

I think the post was a dog whistle with a subtle political message that many of the people posting here know and understand.

Translation: I’m going to deny your experiences and deny you your right to talk about them by claiming this is all a conspiracy. You’re claiming they ARE real experiences? My fingers are in my ears, la la la, I can’t hear you!

Many of the following comments were transphobic.

Translation: I heard things I didn’t like so they must be “transphobic”

My heart breaks thinking of her going off to school without her mum to protect her knowing that there are people who despise her because of who she is.

No one on this thread has expressed that they despise trans people. Either you’re reading things that aren’t there or your distress is projection. Have you tried therapy?

I do not mind to share space with someone who behaves as my own sex. Let's say, they work with me, and they are genuinely womanly.

I know you are trying to be reasonable and kind here but there is something that you really haven't understood. If we have self-id you cannot make laws based on "being womanly" or "looking feminine". We either have single-sex spaces for FEMALES or we have mixed sex spaces where any males (trans or not) are allowed in. It will not, for example, be possible for women to ask for a man with a beard who is naked in the women's changing room to be removed if he says he is a woman. Yes, this is absurd but this is what the problem is! Are you aware of what happened in the Wi spa incident? Women complained about a male-bodied person exposing themself* to children and women in the changing room. Staff said it was ok because the person identified as a woman. Do you think this is ok?

*And yes I know this is awfully ungrammatical but I don't want to get banned by mumsnet.

And btw it turned out that the person in question had previous convictions for sex offences. We have safeguarding for a reason and it is naive to think that there aren't a lot of people out there for whom self-id and this whole palaver are a godsend. We need more women to say no. It is not unkind to say no. It is the only sane choice.

This has given me the rage.

I AM A WOMAN

There, I said it.

And this is why I think/hope the TRA movement will ultimately fail, because no hate has been expressed in these posts, only concerns for women’s sex based rights. These concerns are dismissed and ignored and are rebranded as hate. It’s just old fashioned misogyny repackaged. And of course women are pushing back.

I also worry about the trans child. I worry that he/she will be sent down a road of medical intervention without being allowed to explore different sides to their personality. Give it ten years and there will lawsuit after lawsuit brought by their poor children.

I also worry about the trans child.

Me too. Just a few years ago nobody, NOBODY was suggesting that being a trans child was even a thing. Children were allowed, encouraged even to be/do whatever they want. Where did it all go wrong?

@RaisedByPangolins

Get yourself over the feminism threads and to see even more of this batshittery on a daily basis. The world has gone nuts. Oh sorry shouldn’t say that as it’s probably offensive to people with nut allergies.

Or Nut Owners. It's all Bollox 😐

I also worry about the trans child. I worry that he/she will be sent down a road of medical intervention without being allowed to explore different sides to their personality. Give it ten years and there will lawsuit after lawsuit brought by their poor children

Yes the real transphobia on the thread is from those who think being a transwoman required thinking feeling or presenting as anything . That's not even remotely necessary. And from those who shut down any mention/discussion as transphobic as without discussion/ research/acknowledgement of issues it results in trans people then not being in receipt of the same levels of healthcare and safguarding as others. Why aren't they entitled to that?

@Wobblyhousehunt

I am genuinely more scared for the little trans girl at my sons school than i am sharing space with a transwoman. My heart breaks thinking of her going off to school without her mum to protect her knowing that there are people who despise her because of who she is.

Transphobia right here, assuming the gender of the birthing person or the ejaculator of the trans-girl. That is literal violence, I hope you are ashamed.