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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Just been kicked out of a group for objecting to being referred to as my reproductive organs

502 replies

Gerlais · 30/11/2021 15:59

Group on Facebook. I was referred to as a “uterus owner”. I objected to this. I’m now banned from the group for being transphobic. Everyone piled on me and if I wasn’t kicked out I would have been leaving anyway. I don’t care what other people want to be called but I will not be referred to as my reproductive organs!! It’s not transphobic to want to be referred to as a woman if you were in fact born female and wish to remain a woman? surely?? Or AIBU?

OP posts:
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/11/2021 19:12

@BadSeedsComeAndGo

What is the purpose of the yellow hand clip art? Is that Wobbly giving us all a virtual slap on the wrist?!
Aaah! I wanted it to be a round of applause - which is why I said I'd take a bow!!!

@Wobblyhousehunt stop hurling the insults for long enough to go back and read what has actually been said in the thread and ponder the questions you have been asked.

Anyone new to the topic will only see you throwing out insults and ignoring anything anyone else says unless you want to hurl an epithet.

Appledrop · 30/11/2021 19:16

@Wobblyhousehunt

All I ask is for you to just go and do a bit of research, maybe then you will understand where all the women on here are coming from. Can you do that?

slashlover · 30/11/2021 19:19

Did you really think you'd come on MN and have loads of people saying YABU? Really? On MN?

wellbehavedwomen · 30/11/2021 19:20

@Wobblyhousehunt

Many of these posts show that this post is not about language it’s pure predjudice towards a vulnerable group of people. Try and mask it as AIBU but much of this is hatred. Why do you need someone to hate? You are turning decent people away from feminism.
Interesting. You have no factual rebuttals and no counter-arguments, do you? So you are resorting to calling those giving you actual facts on the subject hateful.

There were signs at a conference against male violence, which included a vigil for women murdered by men, that said, "Suck my dick you transphobic cunts."

Look at what happened to JK Rowling, just for one.

These are some of the things said to women who stand up for women's rights. There are other archives - these threats, slurs and abuses are legion.

There are documented instances of women assaulted for defending women's rights, and even for attending talks about those rights - on one occasion, smoke bombs were set off at a talk on the Grenfell estate, for crying out loud - how twisted does someone need to be, to do that? No examples exist of women behaving this way to those with your views, and yet you have the nerve to call genuine feminists hateful, for simply defending women's rights? The hatred is all coming from those sharing your views. Where is your condemnation for them?

Why are you shaming women for trying to protect our own human rights? And why are you supporting a position which is provably, hideously hateful towards women, while accusing us of hate when you have not one shred of evidence of any such thing?

The simple, factual and evidenced truth isn't hateful, and it isn't hate to defend women's rights, either. And I note that this level of concerted anger and hatred towards women, who express not one jot of dislike or resentment of trans people, simply an insistence that women retain sex-based human rights, as set out in the Equality Act - that hatred in and of itself is evidence that women's rights are under attack.

No feminist I know is demanding anything harmful happens to any other group. They - we - are simply asserting the full humanity of women, and the rights of women to work together for our common good be protected. That is it. That is all. And we need language - language that identifies us as a group, with shared needs and shared experiences - to do that.

That is why the language matters.

turbonerd · 30/11/2021 19:21

I certainly believe this happened to you, YANBU.
I got kicked out of a fb group for asking a TERF question, and I did not even know what a terf was. I had heard the term used in Hannah Gadsby’s show Douglas. She called JK Rowling a terf and said she was punching up. I didnt Get the joke at all, and now I just flat out disagree.

I keep writing about it years later, but I was genuinely taken aback and shocked at the reaction of the people in the «support group».

My question was if I am a cis woman, and a trans woman is a woman, how can that make sense as a trans person is obviously transitioning/changing from one sex to the other?
(I had never thought much on the gender vs sex bit at this point, I was just trying to make sense of something wildly illogical).
And also why dont I Get to just stay «woman»? Why is a New term invented for me?

Anyway, it went downhill really fast and I was piled on for being transphobic and booted out.

I had not thought much of the ramifications of the change in language. I wanted to be kind! I was shocked to find out what it means. This is personal to me because of my own experiences and because I have a disabled child.
When I needed a rape-counsellor I am very happy that RASA provided me with a woman; when I should have gone in to a refugee it should have been a women only; when my ex tried to kill me I am very glad the police sent a female officer with the male one;
because of all this: when I am in an all female changing room I would be extremely distressed if a person I dont know undressed there and turned out to have male genitals - it would send me in to a complete panic;
When my daughter is at school/care/respite it is imperative that I know the sex of her carers - it is absolutely a question of safeguarding.
In addition I have worked with refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. Their traumatic experiences and their religion & culture meant some were sent into a blind panic if a male accidently strayed past when we had swimming lessons (men snd women in separate lessons) for instance. The same blind panic I recognise from ptsd.
Irrational, maybe. But I have realised I would like people to be kind to us too.

Yet I dont think transphobic describes me. If a transwoman wanted to be a carer for my daughter I would welcome that - as long as I was provided with all necessary information. Because of the vulnerability and the need for intimate care, all sorts of information is required to weed out potential abusers.

Cordyceps · 30/11/2021 19:25

I thought there was a topic for this stuff. I have it muted for a reason.

SolasAnla · 30/11/2021 19:31

Many of these posts show that this post is not about language

Remember body part people it's not about being redefined as a body part or about forced change in language which is not replicated by redefining man and male

it’s pure predjudice

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience
Dear me, women body part people need to stop being hysterical

towards a vulnerable group of people.

Remember body part people you are never ever vulnerable

Try and mask it as AIBU but much of this is hatred.

Remember failure to accept instruction is hatred...
said every 4 year-old who discovered how to leverage emotional blackmail

Why do you need someone to hate?

Yep, body part people feel the guilt of not obeying
You hate me...
said every 4 year-old who thinks its the only appropriate response to the word no

You are turning decent people

Subtle as a brick, if you are decent you will agree to be called body part people

away from feminism.

Yep, body part people agree that women and female mean female and male humans

Cattenberg · 30/11/2021 19:33

Look at the latest funding push and petition set up by one of the UKs most vocal male birthing person who wants birth certificates to include whatever identity the parents want to include. So, not their own birth certificate but that of their kids.

Changing the legal definitions of “mother” and “father” in the UK doesn’t just have implications for trans people. For that reason, I don’t think this should happen unilaterally at the request of one minority group. Mothers, fathers, adult children of trans parents, and experts in family law and children’s rights should all be consulted as well.

For this and other reasons, I don’t think this thread should be moved to FWR.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/11/2021 19:34

You know, there are a shedload of sensible, rational, decent trans people who are horrified at being used as a Trojan horse to destroy women's rights. They know their biological sex, and are emphatic that Stonewall et al do not speak for them. They really do just want to be left to get on with life - rather than use this issue as a way to abuse women - and it's notable that they are not allowed to. Because the 'be kind' mob will hurl vitriol at 'truscum' for daring to support women in this. Peak insanity was probably reached when some random woman tried to have charges supported against a trans woman who was apparently being transphobic in stating that he (his preferred pronouns) was male, and that his dysphoria didn't mean he was prepared to throw half the human population under a bus.

This really isn't about trans rights. It's about the erasure of women's rights. It's absolutely the right thing that there are trans-only groups for survivors of sexual violence: peer support matters. Which is why it is so abhorrent that women are called hateful for insisting we retain our own Equality-Act-protected right to single sex spaces, and when our insistence that we need the language to do that is called hateful, too.

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2021 19:37

I've never quite understood the whole 'there's a topic for this stuff' thing. There are so many threads I have no interest in at all. I just....don't read them. It's hardly an ambiguous title!

Toseland · 30/11/2021 19:43

There is a topic for this stuff but the issue has grown and has not been discussed in the normal way and lots of women haven’t been informed and therefore didn’t realise that their rights were affected; the truth of what they are expected to give up. It’s affecting safeguarding, children, language, spaces, prisons, hospitals, sports and in fact all areas of life. It very much belongs on AIBU, if there is nothing wrong with ‘these new ways’ it should be openly discussed right?

FreeBritnee · 30/11/2021 19:43

@Waitwhatwhy

I urge every kind woman in the fence about this stuff to know that transwomen just want to be safe. They don’t want to refer to you by your body parts or any such nonsense. *@Wobblyhousehunt* , genuine question, who is insisting we are referred to by our body parts then? I know very little about all this, I’m trying to learn, but if it’s not the trans women asking for this who is???
There probably is some truth that’s it’s not all transwomen demanding the language is changed. There is an extremist element demanding it but otherwise it’s the lobby groups like Stonewall pushing for it through their diversity programs and then the vocal allies that demand capitulation through social media or they’ll lose you your job.
ScreamingBeans · 30/11/2021 19:49

No. YANBU.

The fact is, everyone knows what a woman is and this desperate attempt to find different terms for us, will ultimately fail, because a tiny group of very effective lobbyists can only be successful against the whole of the population for a very limited time.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/11/2021 19:51

[quote Appledrop]**@Wobblyhousehunt

All I ask is for you to just go and do a bit of research, maybe then you will understand where all the women on here are coming from. Can you do that?[/quote]
I'd second that.

For the record, I started out where you are, @Wobblyhousehunt. I went and did masses of research so that I could dismbowel these horrible, hateful women and put them right, using solid data.

The difficulty was, the evidence all supported them, and not me. Transwomen have male patterns of offending - women have very, very low ones comparatively. Males are thousands of times more of a risk, which is why they're excluded from women's spaces: not because all men are rapists, but because almost all rapists are men. And women have to have language that describes us as a group, or we can't coherently and logically defend our rights, because there is no real collective noun by which to do so - we start defending each right piecemeal and we can't name which group of people (women) are subjected to harms because we are women, and then the whole ability to organise as a group with allied rights and needs starts to disentegrate. The right to access women only refuges, rape support services and women's groups is erased. Women are told not to talk about abortion rights at a Women's March, because it excludes transwomen. We can't say women are affected by sexual violence exponentially more or that's biological essentialism (facts don't matter, apparently, if there's a catch phrase to throw at it). And once I started thinking about this, I began to ask why I assumed a male person saying, "I am a woman" would change the fact that their bodies are sexed in every single cell. That sex can't change, and therefore what did a claim to be a member of the opposite gender really mean? What is a woman, anyway, if it isn't biological sex, and it isn't stereotypes? And why can't a male person wear dresses and anything else he wants, and be whoever he feels is authentic, without being a man?

Gender dysphoria as a medical condition is genuine, and I feel real compassion for anyone suffering. I feel less compassion for a cross dressing man who simply likes to access women's spaces. And Stonewall now place a transvestite in the same category as someone dysphoric from earliest childhood, even though they have completely different drivers for their presentation.

It's a complex issue with two simple facts at the heart: women need single sex provision, and humans can't change sex. And it is perfectly possible to retain sympathy for the infinite variety of the human experience, without closing your eyes to the basic facts that women are vulnerable to male violence, and that the only way to reduce that vulnerability is to provide spaces that exclude all men. However those men may feel about themselves.

It would be hateful to want trans people denied their own groups, services and provisions, but on the contrary, women I know recognise that everyone should have access to peer support. What we do not accept is the suggestion that there should be no such support, on the basis of sex, for women.

I'm serious. Read Trans. It's calm, clear, and well evidenced. And then see what you think, because even if you disagree, at least you will understand the opposing position - which should strengthen your hand in defending your own, yes?

MrsBison · 30/11/2021 19:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Artichokeleaves · 30/11/2021 19:54

There's been several threads this weekend by a rape victim who could not access her local rape crisis centre and had no help.

The rape crisis group ran (on public funding)

  • a group for male service users
  • a group for trans service users
  • a mixed sex group named as for women service users

Male service users could choose the best personal fit of support for them from three options. The women who could not access the one, single mixed sex group were excluded. Some tried and left after a couple of sessions. The rape crisis centre refused to create one single additional group for females only alongside their existing offer. It would not have in any way reduced or affected those three choices and groups for male service users.

It was refused as unacceptable and transphobic - in other words too politically distressing for male service users to permit the existence of a female support group so those women could be helped.

Dog in the manger.

This language thing is the same thing.

It hurts no one to say (whatever) AND women. God knows we keep being told and told and told it's only language, it doesn't matter, suck it up. Women are only asking for AND . Equal access. Equal consideration, voice, priority to male people who identify as other than men (diverse labels obviously, I won't name them all.)

Why is it unacceptable?

Why is it only properly respectful and inclusive to these male people if female people have visibly less and their words/groups removed from them regardless of the fact it excludes some of them? That's just flat out sexist. In the words of Elizabeth Bennett, it hardly encourages sisterly affection.

SolasAnla · 30/11/2021 19:54

@MushMonster

Will just ignore all these new terms and keep talking as normal work? Or are we past that by now? I have not yet found anyone saying this BS in RL, but if they do try, I will just go with, sorry what? I do not understand. Because it is not in the dictionary! Is it? I am just not going to answer by any of those. Woman and mother are good to me. End of.
@MushMonster The problem is when the people passing laws believe that woman be a gender identity and legislate on that basis.

Ireland has full documented self ID.
At 16 you can get a new name and new sex based documents.

It also created a female/woman gender role and a male/man gender role.

Full in an application form and the State will recognise a male penis (not engaged in sexual offences) as a female penis.

Canada recognises an undocumented self ID. The State had to adjudicate if a woman could be fined for refusing to wax a male's testicles.

When sex segregation occurs it's usually based on some kind of safeguarding or to provide sex specific services.
E.g. If sex is no longer recognised as based on biology "womens" healthcare legislation would have to define a specific female body part

ButtonSister · 30/11/2021 19:55

Thank you @wellbehavedwomen - that's it in a nutshell
This really isn't about trans rights. It's about the erasure of women's rights. It's absolutely the right thing that there are trans-only groups for survivors of sexual violence: peer support matters. Which is why it is so abhorrent that women are called hateful for insisting we retain our own Equality-Act-protected right to single sex spaces, and when our insistence that we need the language to do that is called hateful, too.

MothExterminator · 30/11/2021 19:58

I don’t get this.

Why do I have to call myself a uterus owner to be kind to trans people? This is bizarre.

hedgehogger1 · 30/11/2021 19:58

Penis owners? Sounds like they need to take them out for a walk when they get in from work of an evening

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2021 20:01

@MrsBison

Its ironic how transhate is permitted and encouraged on this forum...obviously OP is telling porkies.
I presuming that this is a very clever satirical comment given that quite a few posters have mentioned similar experiences and others (including myself) have given examples of wording being used for national health screening programmes etc which do not use the word woman and instead use 'those with a cervix' or similar.

If not, questioning a change in language isn't transhate.

Blooeyes · 30/11/2021 20:02

The only hate I've seen or experienced is from trans rights activists, not feminists. And no one is saying trans people don't exist or don't have a right to exist.

Its very telling that when people bring up the very real issues with allowing ANY man to self-identify as a woman (including non-trans male sex offenders) and be allowed in women and girls' safe spaces without question, the trans activists just shout bigot and try to shut down the conversation.

Zerogravity · 30/11/2021 20:09

Many of these posts show that this post is not about language it’s pure predjudice towards a vulnerable group of people.

I find your posts very unkind. You seem to have no real empathy. I also think that treating trans people differently from other members of society ("they're so vulnerable we must trust them all completely and no trans person could ever have nefarious motives") is pretty condescending and rather transphobic if you think about it. I know some lovely trans people just as I know some lovely men. That doesn't mean I think we should defer to them in all matters because, shockingly, women matter too.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/11/2021 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SidewaysOtter · 30/11/2021 20:11

@MrsBison I can promise you that experiences like this are not made up. Like @whoopsnomore and @turbonerd I've found myself on the receiving end of a swift and brutal backlash on a group, in my case one I've been part of - in one form or another - for over 20 years. We've discussed everything in that time from politics to religion to abortion and we've always respectfully discussed and disagreed. But I got absolutely turned on when I dared say the wrong thing on The Trans Issue - which was ironic, since I hardly stated an opinion on the matter at all. I thought I was going to get kicked out which I would have been devastated about and suddenly I was so toxic people didn't want to be 'FB friends' any more. It was bloody horrible and very upsetting.

So yes, this CAN and DOES happen. Why do you think it doesn't?