To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

IRL I've never ever had a conversation about 'class'

The frequent threads about it baffle me

@araiwa

IRL I've never ever had a conversation about 'class'

The frequent threads about it baffle me

Same here! MN is obsessed with class.

There also seems to be the view that ‘working class’ = ‘bad’, which I really don’t get.

I’ve had conversations about class irl. People seem to get quite tangled up in it, particularly (in my experience) the need to be seen as essentially ‘working class’ whatever that means these days.

I've never talked about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I think it's quite an interesting topic actually. There are different schools of thought as to what defines class. Is it income, job type, behaviours and cultural norms etc.
Rob Beckett has a new book out which I've bought DH for Christmas about class and social mobility. Looks quite good.
I don't particularly think it's offensive to regard certain pastimes etc as "working class" but that's because I don't think being working class is a bad thing, so why would the things I do be considered "lesser"? They are undeniably different to the things that my wealthy and very MC in-laws do and it seems silly to pretend that's not the case.

No one gives a shiny shite in real life. These threads give MN's resident blowhards/wannabes/fantasists a place to stretch their hairy green legs, though.

Class is nuanced and tricky to define for most people, unless you've studied it in detail, hence the confusion.

Apart from actual aristocracy, its a very blurred concept these days.

MN is absolutely obsessed with class.

Any thread asking about how to identify a rich person inevitably draws a load of posts with that old chestnut "money talks, wealth whispers". Which is why the Queen lives in a shack and shops at Primark.

I reckon that all of those things do have a bearing on class.

Yes its fascinating.
! Have you read watching the english? Itsso intresting.
My own view is that items or money alone absolutely cannot make you middle class.
Class to me is about attitudes and values in the main .
Such as deffered grattification.
Investing in things such as decent furniture.. however this is were it can get tricky as if you are poor you cant always invest.. but id say if you need something amd cant afford it , this is were yr class would determine your response to that situation. You can be poor and middle class, poor and workimg class but sometimes yr response to that sitiation is influenced by class values.( similarly you can be very very weatly but not middle class at all)
For example
A ( typical) middle class response and a typical working class response to a recent issue re lack of money to buy a washing machine.
Mc.. dont buy one one credit at high intrest rate. Ultimately find other ways till you can afford it. Including handwashing if you have to. Buy when you can . Deffered grattification.
More typically working class. Thats ridiclous.. you need one now. Buy it.
Example for exageration.
Alongside this is that if you are living in poverty its relentless and therefore your emotional stamina to face yet another problem such as handwashing is likely to impact on the now decision of course, but you get rhe picture.
Also if you are middlw class you are likely to have more confidence that things will resolve evwn if you are on the breadline.
Look at jack monroe.
Authour of cookery book for when you are on breadline.. she wrote it as result of her expeeince of struggle on benefits.. essentially her mc background of education , and attutudes surely helped her to write it as result.
Its also about life education and what you have expeeinced.
I have however no knowlege of what my clas would be . Come from a industrial family.
Never had what we cdnt afforord.no carpets till we could afford good ones. Limited christmas gifts.
Good quality, few clothes cars paid for in cash .. as a child. Local comp.
Uni..
Prof career.

My parents uses to tell me that the local workers spent all theit money on beer and credit.i was told this is not our way. Like not buying cheap furnishings just to have them bit to wait till yiu could afford what you really wanted and look after it.

Money does not equal class, middle or upper class does not equal wealth.

It is about the different attitudes to a lot of things, but I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn.

Outlyingtrout
That book looks good.
On a similar note , google Duncan Exley.
Writes about the expeeince of working class first generation at uni( or whichhe was one) and how it feels ,like you dont know whats going on .
He also writes about social mobility.v good stuff.

Thread is gold already.

Anyone remember the one from a few months ago with the woman informing us that the girls who attended the local state comp were uglier than the ones who went to the fee-paying private school?

I couldn't care less about class signifiers about myself. Am firmly working class and I know it.

The hand wrangling amuses me though.

DrSbaitso
Thread is gold already.

Great, I'll try to pawn the thread for instant cash when I run out of money prematurely as I've blown it all on booze, fags and washing machines. None of that "deffered grattification" for me!

I do think class indicators exist, but class isn’t dictated by owning certain possessions.
There are definitely tastes that could be broadly identified as middle class/working class. Which doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy them if you are not from that class.

You’re right that you can’t change your class background.

I’m working class, have a lot of upper middle class/upper class friends due to the university I went to.
The differences in taste are quite noticeable to me. I don’t feel insecure about my background, but it fascinates/amuses me how different it is.

MN does seem obsesses with trying to classify class. I think social mobility in the last century has made it harder to judge. It used to be that if you were born into a class that you stayed in that class, but better education provision and industrialisation meant that it was possible for bright children from the working classes to take opportunities that weren’t open to them before. For example, my father and his siblings are lawyers, does that make them ( and by extension, me, middle class?) His father worked in a coal mine, are we suddenly working class again?

I saw a thread a while back asking if having a certain type of dog made you middle class! Does that mean if I have corgis that I’m an aristocrat?

@PlanktonsComputerWife

DrSbaitso Thread is gold already.

Great, I'll try to pawn the thread for instant cash when I run out of money prematurely as I've blown it all on booze, fags and washing machines. None of that "deffered grattification" for me!

🤣

Stay tuned, it will only get better!

@DrSbaitso

Thread is gold already.

Anyone remember the one from a few months ago with the woman informing us that the girls who attended the local state comp were uglier than the ones who went to the fee-paying private school?

Haha, I used to do outside catering for a posh family in their vair large haice, and their daughters looked like horses. And not in a good way.

I’m not really sure what indicates class, and you seem to be saying it’s not down to education, money, or hobbies/interests. But you haven’t said what you think does define it?

What about people who can afford a new washing machine, but can't decide which one to get and in the meantime use a launderette? Does that make one working or middle class? If you add in that the person's parents have no school leaving qualifications, but have always worked in office jobs or teaching, but the person themselves was privately educated? That their grandfathers were respectively a miner and a disabled person unable to work, both grandmothers were cleaners. Yet the person is a senior civil servant? What a contradiction!

Also, you’re right that money has nothing to do with it.

I have upper class friends with huge old family properties. Can’t afford to heat them.
My family are working class, mostly plumbers/builders/electricians, built their own houses or bought houses in London in the 80s, now worth £1m+, and have disposable income.

I have American family who are quite fascinated by the class system that was/is in place here. For them, the more money you have, the higher up the hierarchy you clearly fall. They cannot understand that our class system is much more nuanced and hard to articulate.

It’s not, despite what some may believe, defined by whether you consider a ‘live, laugh, love’ decal delightful or déclassé.