To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

What I find weird is the obsession with it. So many Hyacinth Buckets out there.

@FangsForTheMemory

What I find weird is the obsession with it. So many Hyacinth Buckets out there.

There's definitely a few of them in this thread!

@FangsForTheMemory

What I find weird is the obsession with it. So many Hyacinth Buckets out there.

Well, surely it’s obvious why it’s important at a macro level — socioeconomic status determines large amounts of things about people’s lives, including their life expectancy. But some people are confusing that with class shibboleths like what vs pardon and what you call your granny.

You're taking a different definition of class from that used by most people and saying they've all got it wrong? Maybe you should rethink your own attitudes.

Money has nothing to do with it, I’m working class and broke most times yet I will have a meal in Mayfair and look like a million bucks (with pounds in my purse!)

@FangsForTheMemory

You're taking a different definition of class from that used by most people and saying they've all got it wrong? Maybe you should rethink your own attitudes.

Was that aimed at me? I’m not suggesting anyone has anything ‘wrong’, but neither have I redefined social class. It’s not a controversial definition — a group of people within a society who have the same socioeconomic status. Class has a huge impact on lives, from access to education, housing, opportunities, likely income etc to life expectancy and health. The people you are decrying as ‘Hyacinth Buckets’ are thinking about class indicators, like what you call your evening meal, or what you say if someone says something you don’t hear.

Birdnesting, I find your post very helpful for that succinct definition of something very nebulous. Its also helped me understand the Hyacinth Buckets of the world a little better, as I've always struggled to understand why people are so desperate to be MC (as a WC person, I see nothing attractive about all these rules and self imposed restrictions, and while I'll take the money, you can keep the 'status') But when its framed in terms of the objective advantages of health and longevity that play into our survival instincts, it makes more sense why its seen as 'better', and consequently why people ape the behaviours they feel reinforce it.

@5128gap

Birdnesting, I find your post very helpful for that succinct definition of something very nebulous. Its also helped me understand the Hyacinth Buckets of the world a little better, as I've always struggled to understand why people are so desperate to be MC (as a WC person, I see nothing attractive about all these rules and self imposed restrictions, and while I'll take the money, you can keep the 'status') But when its framed in terms of the objective advantages of health and longevity that play into our survival instincts, it makes more sense why its seen as 'better', and consequently why people ape the behaviours they feel reinforce it.

This is a US thinktank’s study of the US middle class, but the ways it approaches the concept (is it a purely economic definition in terms of income/wealth, or certain types of occupation/educational attainment, or certain tastes, behaviours or types of consumption?) is relatively transferable. Plus it has a section on race and class which doesn’t get talked about as often in the UK, and things like suggesting UK and European. scholars are keener on occupational definitions of class than US ones.

www.brookings.edu/research/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

Thanks for the link. That's really interesting reading.

*to clarify, when i say criminal class, i mean individuals whose lives revolve around crime and dont work. Not referring to the 3 main classes (working, middle, or upper).

Jesus. Class is a system in society. It's not what type of coffee you drink and the names you call your kids.
But as long as people are sold the idea that it's boring or meaningless or you're not 'one of them' because you have a Boden top the less angry you're like to be about systematic inequality.

@Lovelymonkeyninetynine

Jesus. Class is a system in society. It's not what type of coffee you drink and the names you call your kids. But as long as people are sold the idea that it's boring or meaningless or you're not 'one of them' because you have a Boden top the less angry you're like to be about systematic inequality.

Hear hear.

Does someone really think saying tea rather than dinner and spending all your money on cigarettes and alcohol go hand in hand?
Some comments on this thread really are pathetic.

I thought the "tea/dinner" thing was just regional.

It would appear that a new class has been invented on another ongoing thread here. ‘Wigan Class’.

The way that thread is spiralling into a ‘loathe-fest’ towards any working class town in the North, “Wigan Class’ might soon eclipse the working class entirely.

Some absolutely shameful sneering hostility and contempt being dressed up as 'being honest about a certain type of British person and their communities and how awful it is for nice people to have to live near them'.

@Fluffymule

It would appear that a new class has been invented on another ongoing thread here. ‘Wigan Class’.

The way that thread is spiralling into a ‘loathe-fest’ towards any working class town in the North, “Wigan Class’ might soon eclipse the working class entirely.

Some absolutely shameful sneering hostility and contempt being dressed up as 'being honest about a certain type of British person and their communities and how awful it is for nice people to have to live near them'.

I agree. It’s very nasty, full of contempt.

Ridiculously outdated and too complicated to define now anyway thanks to social mobility, but there are still those who desperately cling to the identity of 'middle class' in order to feel superior. I'm definitely what society would define as 'working class', but my husband would be defined as 'middle class', own a decent sized house outright, we have nice taste in things (I like to think anyway!) Plenty of savings, but I'm not sure that makes us 'middle class', and I'm okay with that. We live our lives with the attitude that we're nothing special, just extremely lucky and anyone could fall on hard times. We give to charity, try to be kind and not judge others or see them as being 'beneath us'.

I meet a lot of people at work who would definitely refer to themselves as middle class, and to be honest I find them extremely joyless and tiresome. Always judging others and peering down their noses at them, complaining about anything and everything, a constant expression on their face like they've just swallowed a wasp, and old country houses that are filthy and not having two shackles to rub together. If I have to be labelled I'll take working class any day!

@Junepassing

There is no harm in being working, middle or upper class. But lets not lie to ourselves and say there aren't different classes, because there clearly are.

Although, within the middle class, there tends to be a broader range/variety of people. Personally, I am middle class.

What bothers me is that most middle class are solidly taxed between 20 to 40%, have minimal (or no) benefits and support, are not actually well off compared to the upper class, disposable income is very similar to working class after tax and obligations, and are often judged by both the working and upper classes (thinking that we are snobs and wannabes respectively).

So many posts saying "class doesn't matter, who cares, not important" before going on to a) give a load of one's own supposed class markers and b) sneering at a particular class.

[quote MrsBison]@Junepassing

There is no harm in being working, middle or upper class. But lets not lie to ourselves and say there aren't different classes, because there clearly are.

Although, within the middle class, there tends to be a broader range/variety of people. Personally, I am middle class.

What bothers me is that most middle class are solidly taxed between 20 to 40%, have minimal (or no) benefits and support, are not actually well off compared to the upper class, disposable income is very similar to working class after tax and obligations, and are often judged by both the working and upper classes (thinking that we are snobs and wannabes respectively).[/quote]
I don't really understand what you mean about tax. If you have a similar income to WC people you pay a similar amount of tax. Theres no special MC tax rate as far as I'm aware.

@5128gap

Im saying that in proportion to our earnings we are taxed heavily.

For example, someone who earns 6 to 7 figures a year, isnt going to be materially affected by 40% tax, in terms of disposable income. And are wealthy enough to live a rich lifestyle.

But a middle class person on £70k a year, is going to be taxed on most of their income. Some at 20% and 40%. And have 0 benefits, and no child benefit. Likewise their children cant get university grants and lower loans.

A working class person on £20k a year, will not be taxed on most of their income / proportionally due to personal allowance, and then taxed at 20%. And will more likely have other benefits available to them or their family members.

@Pontypandytaxpayer

I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn.

What the fuck are you talking about it?

I don't think it's true that being MC gives you an open mind. My own mum is very posh Home Counties MC. She is narrow minded, has tunnel vision and is very judgemental. I don't think she is atypical of her age and class.

[quote MrsBison]@5128gap

Im saying that in proportion to our earnings we are taxed heavily.

For example, someone who earns 6 to 7 figures a year, isnt going to be materially affected by 40% tax, in terms of disposable income. And are wealthy enough to live a rich lifestyle.

But a middle class person on £70k a year, is going to be taxed on most of their income. Some at 20% and 40%. And have 0 benefits, and no child benefit. Likewise their children cant get university grants and lower loans.

A working class person on £20k a year, will not be taxed on most of their income / proportionally due to personal allowance, and then taxed at 20%. And will more likely have other benefits available to them or their family members.[/quote]
You’re linking class with income - it’s not clear cut.

@MrsBison plenty of people on £20k a year get no benefits. Basically unless you have no income at all, benefits are largely for children, disabled people and maybe towards rents.
If you are able-bodied and don't have children under 18, the chance are you get no welfare benefits.