To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

Let me guess. DH takes you to the opera at the ROH. You actually rely on the subtitles to understand what's going on.

@Chosenonetosurvivethenight

Which is bigger? Your TV or bookcase?

@PlanktonsComputerWife

Let me guess. DH takes you to the opera at the ROH. You actually rely on the subtitles to understand what's going on.

Operas aren't posh.

Now dance....

I think class is what you're born into and raised as, ranging from lower working class to high class. I am about somewhere between medium to upper working class. Then lower middle class are people that come from working class backgrounds but now have professional jobs or have married into middle class.

It takes at least three generations to change class (especially upwards). And you need to do everything right. Anyone f**ks up and you are back to square one, or worse

@mustlovegin

It takes at least three generations to change class (especially upwards). And you need to do everything right. Anyone f**ks up and you are back to square one, or worse

Elaborate?

[quote Pontypandytaxpayer]@MatildaIThink

No, I swore because you're talking absolute rubbish.

What about people born into middle class families? Perhaps they do better in education and their careers because if economic and social advantage? [/quote]
Economic and social advantages mean you are more likely to be taught as a child, so actually put into practice, delayed gratification.

I've had discussions on class in rl with educators and with people who are immigrants to the UK. Some of these people fall into both camps. Those who have taught children in deprived areas say they can generally tell the class of the individual children they teach by little things like that.

@RosieLemonade

Why is teaching seen as a middle class profession? All the teachers I know are working class.

Growing up teachers and GPs were the poshest people I knew. Definitely not working-class round my way. I would say lower middle class.

Why is teaching seen as a middle class profession? All the teachers I know are working class.

Because it's a profession. Also presumably because in the days when working class people hardly went to university, they didn't get to be teachers. I know teachers from all parts of the class spectrum. The range is obviously affected by what kind of school they teach in - probably not that many working class teachers in top-end private schools.

I am in my fifties. Working-class kids rarely went to university when I was young.

For instance? And how would you characterise your respective positions?

I am sort of... nouveau middle. He is established upper middle.

Lots of it is values & perspectives.

Very very long term and money, including teaching young children about it from an early age.

He never swears publically, or loses his temper. He grimaces if I stick up a middle finger at an arsehole driver cutting me up.

He has an assurance that makes him take different decisions to me. A confidence that of course things will always work out eventually, so takes a little more risk.

Let me guess. DH takes you to the opera at the ROH. You actually rely on the subtitles to understand what's going on.

God no. I've been to the opera far more than him.

He mainly only listens to Wagner .

Its 95% values.

@supremelybaffled

It is about the different attitudes to a lot of things, but I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn

Really?

Are you implying that working class people are hedonistic ignorant bigots?

It is amazing how some people make such an effort to misunderstand, or fine offence.

Delaying gratification is one of the key elements of success, in many cases it is actually more important than raw intelligence. It is also something that is often instilled by middle class parents in their children and is a characteristic of the vast majority of people with successful careers. Working class people are much more likely to buy something on credit, even when they are less likely to be able to afford the cost of the credit, where as the middle class person will save up, going without until they can afford to buy it outright. There are of course exceptions, especially in the Nouveau Riche group who whilst having middle class incomes tend to engage in conspicuous consumption. The Marshmallow Test is a good starting point, but there is a lot of research out there to read should you wish to learn about it's impacts.

In terms of open minded attitude and a continued desire to learn (into adulthood) those are also often key to career progression, as well as the attitude towards life of a lot of people. As other have mentioned earlier, people from their home towns, or even family thinking that they are "posh" because they use garlic in their cooking, the unwillingness to try new foods, new experiences. With education middle class people watch more documentaries, they also read more and read a far higher proportion of non-fiction. They also tend to undertake more career specific education throughout life, more professional development and continued learning. In a situation with equal leisure time middle class parents read more with their children, where as working class parents watch more television with their children.

Of course there are exceptions, but even casual observation give good evidence, let alone wider research.

They will put in the extra hours as paid overtime to help them save the deposit to buy.

How do you think working class people buy their house @MatildaIThink? Most MC people I know had help from their parents to get up a deposit. WC people not so much. They did overtime and 2nd jobs.

@TooBigForMyBoots

They will put in the extra hours as paid overtime to help them save the deposit to buy.

How do you think working class people buy their house @MatildaIThink? Most MC people I know had help from their parents to get up a deposit. WC people not so much. They did overtime and 2nd jobs.

Well in the case of my husband and I (both working class backgrounds), who are classed as middle class (although for some deranged reason the BBC survey says we are "Elite"), we got our deposit by working extra hours, evening and weekend jobs on top of other jobs, when my husband started his own business he worked in bars in the evenings so he still had an income coming in. When I was studying my BSc, masters and PhD I worked in bars and restaurants 30-40 hours a week on top of studying to cover costs and to be able to continue to save.

I am not sure of the data, but what percentage of working class people buy their own home? A rough Google gives nothing reliable, but indicates that that a majority of working class people rent, where as a majority of middle class own (either with or without a mortgage).

Was just chatting to some friends at dinner about this, they are most definitely upper middle or even upper, I’m just about middle with a WC mum. They scrape the bowls after dinner and save all the scraps and scrape yogurt of the lids of pots. They can’t believe I don’t, as a child if I did my mum would tell me off “we’re not poor we don’t have to do that”. She thinks dinner is fancy if it’s called dinner and has a paper serviette and would like a new set of plates every year.

My MC dad (grammar school, uni, professional) would tell me off for saying “what” and insisted on pardon. Also demands fish knives and cloth napkins and has a matching set of China he insists my mum keeps and uses for guests.

My UM/U friends tell their kids not to say “pardon”, have old unmatched chipped China that would horrify my mum but is all actually really old and inherited and let’s the dog kick the plates!

WC - always trying to prove their not poor
MC - desperate to prove their not WC
UC - secure in status and not trying to prove anything

Elaborate?

Suppose you are WC and marry into an UC family. You may send your DC to expensive schools, they will have access to UC circles and you can do your best to assimilate UC behaviours, values and a general mindset to instil into your DC. They will probably still be somewhere in the middle (as, despite your efforts, your WC background will exert some influence on them and on how they are perceived by others).

Now, if your DC in turn marry into UC themselves, your DGC (or their DC) will have probably fully transitioned and their WC background largely eroded.

BUT, if someone along the way dithers, becomes resentful, guilty or unwilling to integrate, marries back into WC to be 'faithful' to their 'roots', falls prey to a freeloader/conman, etc. that's it. You and your descendants have probably missed your chance. It's a bit harsh, but I've seen it happen time and time again IRL

So, in a nutshell, I think it takes more than one generation to fully change class

Class isn't much to do with money in Britain. Its cultural. You can earn all the money you like, but that still doesn't mean you read as another class, despite clothes, cars etc. And over the years I've realised people like it. They go on about being classless etc but you see otherwise in a million ways when you go around to their houses, see what they have on the walls, what they drink, what they discuss. That never changes in a generation or two.

It's amazing just how many people think they can get away with voicing prejudices by hiding them behind pseudo-eloquence.

@DeepaBeesKit

For instance? And how would you characterise your respective positions?

I am sort of... nouveau middle. He is established upper middle.

Lots of it is values & perspectives.

Very very long term and money, including teaching young children about it from an early age.

He never swears publically, or loses his temper. He grimaces if I stick up a middle finger at an arsehole driver cutting me up.

He has an assurance that makes him take different decisions to me. A confidence that of course things will always work out eventually, so takes a little more risk.

I hear you on the confidence — it’s easier to take risks or quit things that aren’t working for you if you have a cushion of funds and a family background of successful professionals, and of course it’s also simply much less of a risk if you have these things — but don’t you think the other things are likely to be due to his individual character or upbringing, rather than class-inflected? I don’t think I’ve noticed a particular diminution in sweariness or driving temper as you ascend the class ladder…

@MatildaIThink, but doesn’t your own example contradict your middle-class delayed gratification theory? You and your husband are WC in origin, yet you practiced delayed gratification for years before you can have achieved anything like MC status.

MNs is so obsessed with this.

What I don't get is why the entrepreneur from the council state who made millions & loves flashy cars is considered below the land & property developer who inherited everything but drives a banger, it doesn't make sense!

@Marimaur
*Also, you’re right that money has nothing to do with it.

I have upper class friends with huge old family properties. Can’t afford to heat them.
My family are working class, mostly plumbers/builders/electricians, built their own houses or bought houses in London in the 80s, now worth £1m+, and have disposable income.*

The owners of huge properties who don't heat them are still wealthy. They just have odd priorities.

Your family are working class by social background. They may still be considered working class by some or all of background/education/accent etc. But their economic class is different.

A lot of people who have got to be middle class in terms of financial and career rewards have done so by delaying gratification. They chose to continue education in a way which built towards a career, they put in the extra hours for no extra pay now, knowing that it would benefit them down the track with promotions. They will put in the extra hours as paid overtime to help them save the deposit to buy. They save towards things rather than buying them in credit. They are less likely to engage in conspicuous consumption. They delay gratification

I don't believe this, most people I know who have bought a house has only done so with family help.

@Cbtb
*My MC dad (grammar school, uni, professional) would tell me off for saying “what” and insisted on pardon. Also demands fish knives and cloth napkins and has a matching set of China he insists my mum keeps and uses for guests.

My UM/U friends tell their kids not to say “pardon”, have old unmatched chipped China that would horrify my mum but is all actually really old and inherited and let’s the dog kick the plates!*

This came from an essay Nancy Mitford wrote in the 1950s and I recall hearing somewhere that she didn't intend it to be taken seriously.