To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

Social class is a kind of tribal culture, composed of all sorts of things from accent, education, income, and so on. It’s not just one of those things alone, but a complex system of lots of factors. It also changes over time. Just because it’s difficult to define doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or isn’t relevant to people’s lives or experiences, though.

@UnsuitableHat

I’ve had conversations about class irl. People seem to get quite tangled up in it, particularly (in my experience) the need to be seen as essentially ‘working class’ whatever that means these days.

There are a lot of positive associations with being WC. Not least that the comfortable lifestyle they may now enjoy is literally all their own work. No inherited wealth or family financial support, overcoming various challenges linked to low income, sometimes going against the grain in their community. Getting on as a WC person is often more of an achievement and people can be rightfully proud of it. There are also lots of negative associations with being MC for a lot of WC people. More staid and conservative, less likely to seek pleasure so less fun, less likely to live in and enjoy the moment, overall less cool and interesting I suppose, so some people prefer to hang on to their WC identity.

It's mostly about who you know, and more generally, about who sees you as a peer, and who you consider your peers.

For instance... how easily you can find someone to countersign your passport picture.

Working class myself, but know and socialise with both working and middle class types - and maybe a few you may consider to be ‘upper’ middle class. On many occasions I have heard the working class be extremely disparaging towards the middle and uppers - but never the other way around. Reverse snobbery is definitely alive and well.

I agree with that class is a very nuanced thing - almost to the point where it's impossible to make any meaningful statement about it. Certainly money alone is not a useful indicator - where does that leave the Old Etonian tramp I once met in Manchester??

I've read lots of stuff over the years, but one of the most subtle and perceptive investigations I've come across was Grayson Perry's series a few years back. He comes closest to nailing it for me. Also, I think the BBC did a documentary series on the middle classes a while ago and that was a pretty good analysis too - but you need time and detail - it's not a broad-brush thing, I think.

2 points I feel strongly about:

1. Class is a thing, and will always be with us. It's a result of the natural hierarchies which humans construct, for better or worse. Even in communist countries there are/were definite pecking orders, access to privilege and differentiated opportunites etc. You just can't escape it, unfortunately. And it's NOT just a British thing. Oh my goodness - the American and French snobbery I've come across! Just because people aren't actually designated as Dukes, Earls and Sirs doesn't prevent it at all.

1. Let's face it - where would be be in terms of comedy and literature without class? Jane Austen, Dickens, Hardy, D H Lawrence and pretty much every sitcom ever written would struggle if you got rid of class distinctions.

The point is not to be a snob, I would have thought.

RobotValkyrie
I was often asked to sign passports?( before giving up my prof career. Am now a housekeeper amd very happy .. much less stress) Why is that a class thing?

CulturePigeon agree! That programme was great.

Just today I was watching a doco about the British Raj in India - they were talking about how the British were obsessed by "class". That was 100 years ago and I'd say that nothing has changed.

Thinking about it we have a couple Friends. Both from the same sort of background (working class). We earn if anything the same but much likely we earn more. They would describe themselves now as Midde Class but my DH would say we are working class. I have no opinion and get confused about class.

They do have a more expensive house with no children. We own our house at the end of next year and have a family.

I have huge issues with the BBC class calculator because it implies class is a lot more mobile than it is - which does a huge disservice to those who are trapped by privileges they lack through no fault of their own.

According to that calculator, I changed from an "Emergent Service Worker" to "Established Middle Class" purely by progressing in my career and buying a house.

But on my dad's side, my family tree stretches back to the Domesday Book. My family have been attending elite institutions since those institutions existed. Without being part of the upper class, they were in a position to be at the VERY HIGHEST echelons of society and played a part in significant parts of history - some of them have been represented in film multiple times.

My branch of the family aren't wealthy, bust "Established Middle Class" is a perfect description of what they are, and the idea that I wasn't when I was in my first job and therefore didn't have independent assets of my own yet didn't represent my life situation and likely outcomes at all accurately.

I’ve only seen class mentioned on Downton or Mumsnet.
Out in the real world no one cares.

@araiwa

IRL I've never ever had a conversation about 'class'

The frequent threads about it baffle me

Me too and I’m in my 60’s! MN can be a weird place sometimes.

@CulturePigeon

I agree with that class is a very nuanced thing - almost to the point where it's impossible to make any meaningful statement about it. Certainly money alone is not a useful indicator - where does that leave the Old Etonian tramp I once met in Manchester??

I've read lots of stuff over the years, but one of the most subtle and perceptive investigations I've come across was Grayson Perry's series a few years back. He comes closest to nailing it for me. Also, I think the BBC did a documentary series on the middle classes a while ago and that was a pretty good analysis too - but you need time and detail - it's not a broad-brush thing, I think.

2 points I feel strongly about:

1. Class is a thing, and will always be with us. It's a result of the natural hierarchies which humans construct, for better or worse. Even in communist countries there are/were definite pecking orders, access to privilege and differentiated opportunites etc. You just can't escape it, unfortunately. And it's NOT just a British thing. Oh my goodness - the American and French snobbery I've come across! Just because people aren't actually designated as Dukes, Earls and Sirs doesn't prevent it at all.

1. Let's face it - where would be be in terms of comedy and literature without class? Jane Austen, Dickens, Hardy, D H Lawrence and pretty much every sitcom ever written would struggle if you got rid of class distinctions.

The point is not to be a snob, I would have thought.

Yes to the Grayson Perry series. Have you ever been to one of his exhibitions? I love his interpretations of social class.

@Chosenonetosurvivethenight

Which is bigger? Your TV or bookcase?

Tv because I have got a kindle...next?

I agree cays, I've just done the BBC calculator and I come out in the Elite section which I know I am not, whilst we are comfortably middle class we are not elite. It seems more of an attempt to generate a story rather than have any form of accuracy.

I think people pigeon hole you according to accent. A poor person with a posh accent is more likely to pass as middle class than a person with money and a regional accent. You can have a middle class job, middle class life style but social climbers will still turn their nose up at you.

@Mondaymindy that research looks interesting. I think that will likely happen to my child.

I'm from proper working class stock - big extended family, factory workers, bought up in council houses, parents left school at 14, father in the pub every day (arsehole!) etc. However, I've travelled the world, been in the Navy and the Army as an officer. I have a Diploma, Degree and I'm studying a Masters, own my own home, above average income but not huge, enjoy stereotypical MC stuff, blah blah.

So according to some stats, I have climbed the social class ladder however, with current trends I doubt my child will continue to climb/stay MC as he may not have these opportunities due to rising house prices, increase in competition for jobs, general increase in living expenses. Therefore he is likely to stay within the working class boundaries. Not sure that makes sense

@GoodnightGrandma

I’ve only seen class mentioned on Downton or Mumsnet. Out in the real world no one cares.

This is a bit naive. Discussion of social class is much like income. Income is something of a sensitive subject. Very often in a friendship group people have similar income levels, in which case it's not much of an issue. If they have significantly different incomes it's probably insensitive to draw attention to the fact. But to say income levels aren't important would be ridiculous. And on an anonymous forum like Mumsnet people will often talk about it much more openly.

Class is the same.

@CulturePigeon

I agree with that class is a very nuanced thing - almost to the point where it's impossible to make any meaningful statement about it. Certainly money alone is not a useful indicator - where does that leave the Old Etonian tramp I once met in Manchester??

I've read lots of stuff over the years, but one of the most subtle and perceptive investigations I've come across was Grayson Perry's series a few years back. He comes closest to nailing it for me. Also, I think the BBC did a documentary series on the middle classes a while ago and that was a pretty good analysis too - but you need time and detail - it's not a broad-brush thing, I think.

2 points I feel strongly about:

1. Class is a thing, and will always be with us. It's a result of the natural hierarchies which humans construct, for better or worse. Even in communist countries there are/were definite pecking orders, access to privilege and differentiated opportunites etc. You just can't escape it, unfortunately. And it's NOT just a British thing. Oh my goodness - the American and French snobbery I've come across! Just because people aren't actually designated as Dukes, Earls and Sirs doesn't prevent it at all.

1. Let's face it - where would be be in terms of comedy and literature without class? Jane Austen, Dickens, Hardy, D H Lawrence and pretty much every sitcom ever written would struggle if you got rid of class distinctions.

The point is not to be a snob, I would have thought.

I agree, and the snobbery can exist between all classes - it doesn't just flow downwards. It's more subtle than that. And the writers you mention were all excellent at unpicking those subtleties - Lady Catherine deBurgh being a great example!

Class is a blend of socio-economics and culture, that sits in the middle of current global socio-economic trends. And there's good and bad in all classes. I can no more make myself working class than I could make myself upper class, and it's part of my identity. But then so is being a woman, being northern, being xyz...

I don't have many books because I was raised in a house with about 20, 000 books. DF had a massive library. They were a mill stone and I would not want that amount of clutter. I prefer to have fewer belongings. Where does that leave me?

@Summerrain123

I don't have many books because I was raised in a house with about 20, 000 books. DF had a massive library. They were a mill stone and I would not want that amount of clutter. I prefer to have fewer belongings. Where does that leave me?

You could be working class. But you might be middle class. Or upper class.

@Summerrain123

I don't have many books because I was raised in a house with about 20, 000 books. DF had a massive library. They were a mill stone and I would not want that amount of clutter. I prefer to have fewer belongings. Where does that leave me?

As someone with not many books

I prefer my books to my children which probably makes me very much lower class.

Not as posh as me. I can't afford the ointment for my ancestral piles.

@DrSbaitso

Thread is gold already.

Anyone remember the one from a few months ago with the woman informing us that the girls who attended the local state comp were uglier than the ones who went to the fee-paying private school?

This is actually very true for many countries around the world, beautiful women are more likely to marry rich men and have beautiful daughters who then go to expensive schools. But yes, strangely not in the UK.

The only people who are obsessed with class are those who are utterly desperate to prove that they are definitely middle class, oh yes they are, so there.

Everyone else knows who they are, and get on with their lives unencumbered by such nonsense.