To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

@MatildaIThink

No, I swore because you're talking absolute rubbish.

What about people born into middle class families? Perhaps they do better in education and their careers because if economic and social advantage?

@Onairjunkie

Where does one stand when one has seven large televisions and a library?

Not too close to the screen.

I often read descriptions of my apparent class on here and they are hilarious and obviously written by people who watch Keeping Up Appearances, but don't actually know any member of the aristocracy.

Broadly speaking, the opportunity to access all the stereotypical indicators, to take profitable chances, and to continue lifestyle and comfort into subsequent generations boils down to just one word.

Inheritance.

@SecretSpAD

I often read descriptions of my apparent class on here and they are hilarious and obviously written by people who watch Keeping Up Appearances, but don't actually know any member of the aristocracy.

Would anyone mistake keeping up appearances with behaviour of actually posh people?

I think its a bit naïve to think it only happens/gets discussed on Mumsnet tbh.

Class pervades British society. But its become less acceptable to discuss it openly with people so perhaps not surprising that it finds an outlet on social media. It's very hard for people not born into the British class system to understand how it works so basically any immigrant will struggle with it and find it baffling. And each class has its own codes of recognition, which is why, as someone mentioned upthread, people from working class backgrounds often find university bewildering at first.

So I don't think there's anything particularly unhealthy about people wanting to let off steam about it.

I think class matters less than it used to and society is more mobile than it was 50 years ago, in both directions. But getting rid of the values, attitudes and aspirations of the class you were born into is quite complicated, which is why there is so much anxiety and discussion about it.

As long as you don't allow it to define your life or limit the sorts of people you are exposed to I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing it....

@glimpsing

I find the upper classes to be the most unfortunate of creatures. They are so terribly incapable of even the simplest of tasks and have to employ servants to do them all. The servants rule them with a rod of iron, they have to ask permission from the gardener if they want to plant a new tree or rose, the cook if they fancy something different for dinner, the interior designer if they want to replace a horribly uncomfortable chair. Even their own hair is subject to opinions. They're not allowed to look after their own children, nurse then nanny and then they're shipped off to boarding school and Oxford or Cambridge for some indeterminate amount of time until a middle aged stranger arrives at the door shouting "Hello, Mother!'.

No, I'd rather fully live my life!

Has this pitying fit been sparked off by comfusing real life with Edwardian big house novels, Downton Abbey and Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca?

Has this pitying fit been sparked off by comfusing real life with Edwardian big house novels, Downton Abbey and Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca?

No, just the current editions of Tatler, where the offspring are purveyed as participants of some peculiar livestock auction and there are numerous articles deliberating over what is considered correct in terms of clothing, jewellery, interiors, where one takes one's holidays, whether Bridge is seen as an acceptable pastime and endless other such trivial trappings and paraphernalia.

Too exhausting!

@SecretSpAD

I often read descriptions of my apparent class on here and they are hilarious and obviously written by people who watch Keeping Up Appearances, but don't actually know any member of the aristocracy.

You mean, you don't dress like a tramp in decaying tweeds, and rattle around cheerily being all hail-fellow-well-met to all in your knackered Volvo full of black Labs, while trying to keep the wolf from the Palladian portico?

And it isn't until the gamekeeper addresses you as 'your Grace' that the newcomers to the village (nouveaux riches, driving about ostentatiously in a large white jeep with an interior of Swarovski crystals, fake tan and social climbing) realise your exalted status?

Disappointed now.

Unpopular opinion, being anti-vaxx is a huge lower class signifier regardless of the actual income of that person. There's a certain "type" of person who fits the profile and they might have money on paper but those who know them would not consider them old-money or academic classy.

@Glassofshloer

Yep. Posters on here are paradoxically obsessed with class & also making out class doesn’t matter to them.

Lost count of the number of posts wanting recommendations for a ‘diverse, multicultural, interesting, quirky’ place to live, but what they really mean is a white middle class area next to a multicultural area, so they can pop in once a week and feel ‘open-minded’.

👍

@glimpsing

Has this pitying fit been sparked off by comfusing real life with Edwardian big house novels, Downton Abbey and Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca?

No, just the current editions of Tatler, where the offspring are purveyed as participants of some peculiar livestock auction and there are numerous articles deliberating over what is considered correct in terms of clothing, jewellery, interiors, where one takes one's holidays, whether Bridge is seen as an acceptable pastime and endless other such trivial trappings and paraphernalia.

Too exhausting!

Oh, I think Tatler has basically diversified into a how manual for the new breed of oligarchs and the like. I suppose it had to - when it was just toffs in tiaras it had a circulation of about 200. Like Swiss finishing schools, which have come down to being IVP finessing the children of ME sheikhs and Chinese billionaires the art of international dinner party conversation, or whatever.

I agree it's an interesting topic. What I find odd is loads of MC claiming the working class identity and then trying to police what it means. Like saying chav means the working class - no it doesn't. I'm
Solidly working class and where I come from it means people with no standards - those who leave rubbish rotting in their front garden etc.

Agree that there are lots of threads about it on MN - far more than in real life.

Everyone has their own ideas of what 'class' means, the thing that always amuses me is the idea that it only exists in the UK! All countries have some form of class.

I've seen no one make the argument that class systems only exist in the UK. They're pretty much everywhere, albeit the parameters are different.

I've lived in the States. Their own form of class system and cultural/class divides are very different from ours and very problematic in their own way. Prejudices exist and divides arise out of them. The old adage that anyone can build their way up and become whatever they want to be - a sentiment many people are fond of across the pond - is a hollow platitude when you consider the very real barriers some American citizens face and the reasons for these.

But British society, IME, has a particular hang-up with the issue of 'class'. You notice it particularly when you've lived elsewhere and have come back.

Oh, I think Tatler has basically diversified into a how manual for the new breed of oligarchs and the like. I suppose it had to - when it was just toffs in tiaras it had a circulation of about 200. Like Swiss finishing schools, which have come down to being IVP finessing the children of ME sheikhs and Chinese billionaires the art of international dinner party conversation, or whatever.

Plenty of old money still spread across the pages of Tatler!

I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn

What a load of bollocks

@Flapjacker48

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

There are some strange views on everything on MN

I filled out the bbc class calculator thing a few years ago and was defined as new affluent worker.

I just had another go and I’m now classed as elite?! My interests haven’t changed but my financial health is vastly different. Looks like the bbc weight net worth higher than interests as a class indicator.

Lol I’m not elite on any level.

I wasn't born in England but moved here when I was young. I can honestly say at 40 I have no idea what class I am or how 8t works.

I have had general conversations about class. But it appears some people think I am working, some middle. In recent years I have been told "its different for you upper class people" based on my job and the fact that the majority of my peers are perceived as upper class. Which, knowing them I don't think is right, but not sure.

I also dont know about moving class. My grandparents were working class, my parents (apparently) could be considered WC or MC. I don't know where I fall.

But I would think my kids would be viewed as MC. But I don't even know if I can change class or are my kids always what the parents are. What if you are WC when the kids are born, but then become a Higher earner and are perceived as MC? What are the kids, if they were born WC but most of their childhood was perceived as, and had the benefits of a MC upbringing? Is it just perception or is there an actual list somewhere?

If you are WC but enough people assume you are MC, then are you MC?

I have been here almost 40 years and dont understand the class system. And from my perception, being Mixed race and a woman impacts my life, far more than my class so I, rarely think about it.

Its like any answers just raise more questions and I can't figure it out

We had a class dilemma when ds2 was going to college. He's not particularly academic, has aspergers and it was a battle getting him through his GCSEs. I wanted him to do a plumbing and heating engineer Btec, but ds1 said he'd be bullied at the local college because of how he speaks and the type of stuff he's interested in. He was bullied at school for being 'posh' (he doesn't speak with the local accent. Ds said he'd be eaten for breakfast due to the demographic who'd tend to do plumbing courses. Ds2 is now doing an applied science course which is okay I suppose. It'd have been nice if he'd had a choice though. Ds2 wasn't fussed what he did, but liked the idea of learning a trade.

It is about the different attitudes to a lot of things, but I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn

Really?

Are you implying that working class people are hedonistic ignorant bigots?

@thecatsthecats

I have huge issues with the BBC class calculator because it implies class is a lot more mobile than it is - which does a huge disservice to those who are trapped by privileges they lack through no fault of their own.

According to that calculator, I changed from an "Emergent Service Worker" to "Established Middle Class" purely by progressing in my career and buying a house.

But on my dad's side, my family tree stretches back to the Domesday Book. My family have been attending elite institutions since those institutions existed. Without being part of the upper class, they were in a position to be at the VERY HIGHEST echelons of society and played a part in significant parts of history - some of them have been represented in film multiple times.

My branch of the family aren't wealthy, bust "Established Middle Class" is a perfect description of what they are, and the idea that I wasn't when I was in my first job and therefore didn't have independent assets of my own yet didn't represent my life situation and likely outcomes at all accurately.

I've just run that calculator and let's just say the result was not what I was expecting!

I'd like to know the "nuts and bolts" behind the algorithm.

The fact that you think it's 'rubbish' that certain things are often markers of social class doesn't mean you're right. But anyway, there aren't many things which are reliable class markers on their own - they are part of a larger picture. Like it or not, what people do, wear and say (and how they say it) gives us a lot of information about their background and upbringing. That doesn't mean we should care what class people are, or make judgements about them because of it. But it would be naïve to think class doesn't exist or that lots of people don't make judgements based on it.

I'm a bit lower down the class spectrum than DH.

We have similar educational levels and career paths.

However there are just certain ingrained values and behaviours that creep out & give me away .

@DeepaBeesKit

I'm a bit lower down the class spectrum than DH.

We have similar educational levels and career paths.

However there are just certain ingrained values and behaviours that creep out & give me away .

For instance? And how would you characterise your respective positions?