To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

He is right to the extent that you would "manage", but that needs to be predicated on you wanting a child and you don't. It does sound as if you have rational concerns about how he would cope with the reality and frankly, the fact that he is not listening to you on the subject is not a good sign either. It indicates to me that he is sure you are not serious/ can be persuaded to change your mind (I would find this infuriating)

I don’t believe that people with MH issues shouldn’t have children, not at all, I just know him really well and I don’t think it would make him happy and perhaps be detrimental to his health. He has lots of qualities that would make him a wonderful father- he’s kind and caring, he’s funny, he’s very physically active etc. But he needs his own space on a daily basis or he feels overwhelmed, one afternoon a week where we take turns wouldn’t cut it. When I first moved in I went to my mum’s every weekend while he adjusted, and had evenings out without him too. We lived together for years before I could invite friends over for dinner because he found sharing his space so difficult. He has worked really hard on this to make me happy and has learned to make compromises- but if he finds it hard to share his space with me, an independent adult, all day- I don’t understand how he thinks having a noisy, demanding and entirely dependent child will be okay? He can learn to manage stress, I’m so proud of how hard he’s worked in his career, but we make this work by making his time at home as relaxing as possible. I’m pretty laidback and I don’t take it personally when he wants his own time, and I can pick up the pieces at home when he’s not able to manage (which he’s also done for me on the odd occasion that I’ve had flu or something). But that will be a lot harder if we have a child to look after.

I guess I just want him to agree that the happiest path for him is to not have a child and to be with me (as lovely and wonderful as I think he is, I think he’d struggle to find someone else who can manage all his quirks as cheerfully as I do.) I obviously wouldn’t say that to him as it sounds manipulative, but I suppose that’s what I’m hoping he thinks in the end.

I understand it’s his decision and I will make sure he understands that I don’t want a child (not just not with him, but not at all) and he can leave if he wants.

Yes, he probably is being unrealistic. And if you as the potential mother have the slightest doubt, it would be a bad idea to go ahead just because it’s what he wants. You’re being very sensible.

Basically, currently you spend a lot of time supporting and adapting and emotionally putting your energy into him because of his illness. That's your choice and it seems like this has worked well. But a child won't do that- they won't be quiet, or give him space, or find other things to do, or not overwhelm him. They will be loud or ill or sick or funny or want to do stuff- and that will overwhelm him. You will end up trying to manage the child the whole time not to bother him, which is already what you do yourself, but it's much much harder with a child.

I think his needs are quite high around his illness, and a child would mean it's almost impossible to fulfil them. You would have to then manage both him and them. The burden is going to be all on you.

I guess I just want him to agree that the happiest path for him is to not have a child and to be with me

No. Its the path that you want, not the path he wants. He may decide to give up his dream of a family, and stay with you, but wanting him to agree that it will make him happy makes it sound like you just want to alleviate your guilt at changing your mind.

For most people who want a child, coming to terms with not having one is a huge grief. Don't get him to pretend its a good thing. Its not fair.

If he wants children, then let him go. You owe him and his future happiness at that. And don't wait 5 years to see if you change your mind - that's stringing him along, and by that point he might find it difficult to start again and find someone to have a child with, so he'd have lost the oppertunity forever.

He’s not being unrealistic about parenting,
he’s looking forward to the future and hoping for the best - which is what all new parents do, otherwise no one would ever have kids .

It just sounds like he wants kids and you don’t - a fundamental difference in life choices, which you need to address before marrying him. If he’s so keen, let him loose to find someone that wants them too. Just in the same way he can’t pressure you into having them (and honestly, really don’t if you don’t want to).

@Moonbabysmum

I guess I just want him to agree that the happiest path for him is to not have a child and to be with me

No. Its the path that you want, not the path he wants. He may decide to give up his dream of a family, and stay with you, but wanting him to agree that it will make him happy makes it sound like you just want to alleviate your guilt at changing your mind.

For most people who want a child, coming to terms with not having one is a huge grief. Don't get him to pretend its a good thing. Its not fair.

If he wants children, then let him go. You owe him and his future happiness at that. And don't wait 5 years to see if you change your mind - that's stringing him along, and by that point he might find it difficult to start again and find someone to have a child with, so he'd have lost the oppertunity forever.

I’m not stringing him along, I’ve been honest and I’ve told him he can leave if he wants a family. I feel like you’ve taken two lines out of context of a much longer post. I love him and I’d really worry about him if he went and had a family with someone else, I hope he’d really think it through first and work out some coping strategies, because I think he’d struggle more than the average person. So yes of course I selfishly don’t want to lose the man I love, but I also don’t believe he’s being realistic about his health.

Your thread reminds me of an now old movie 'he's not that into you'. Poss bit dated now and not quite exact to this situation but there certainly is this parallel:

It's a tale as old as time, introspective girlfriend, very facilitating, angst over whether marriage and kids is right for him.
Split up.
Within alarmingly short time he has new hot 25yo wife and small kids. New wife doesn't overanalyse it and possibly does more child rearing / is sahm, but is ok with that.

How would you feel in this situation?

Sorry to say but literally it happens all the time, over and over again.

Can you borrow (or rent) 2, 3 or 4 young children (under 7) for a week- end and see how he likes it?

Other peoples children are annoying. Most pp think that. Your own children aren't (in the same way) :) You love them and normally youve seen them grow day by day since a newborn baby. Youre not landed with a running around 4yo, you were there when they learned to walk.

I think an afternoon cringing at 3 screaming otherpeoples children isnt really indicative.

My bff barely tolerated my kids, and hated all kids, until she had her own (3!) kids, starting at age 38. She's the best mother and v v loving.

I don't think I've taken anything out of context.

You've changed your mind about children - your 'lets have one child in the future' has become 'I don't want children'.

Its ok to change your mind, but making out that he is being unrealistic, and wanting him to agree that he'd be happier if HE changed his mind to fit your changed mind, feels really unfair. It isn't about him- he's not the one that's changed his mind.

You say that you love him deeply, but seem content for him to give up a huge life dream because its incompatible with yours. Sometimes love means letting someone go, so they can go on a life journey that you can't join them on. And yes, that's heartbreaking, but better than a lifetime of regret and grief from him surely? If he does want to stay with you and not have children, then that needs to be something he thinks about very very carefully, possibly with counselling.

dont have children op

You've made it clear thats not what you want. He isnt taking you seriously because he DOESNT WANT TO. its almost a form of denial. He doesnt want to leave you so he is plodding along with his head in the sand with the hopes of you changing your mind.

Its going to sound firm but id give him some tough loving if i was you and sit him down with the tonner and manner being as serious as possible and tell himself along the lines of

"Listen i know i have touched on this before but i feel like you have not taken me seriously. I do not want children, and if this is something that is important to you i'd like you to think about what you want for your future but do not rely on me to change my mind for you down the line. This will not happen. I want you to respect what i want for myself as much as i respect your decision. And respecting means accepting."

Its all a very dangerous trap here. But especially with his mh history op please do not having children you dont want. If he ever went through a depressive episode it would all fall on you and you know it. You would then most likely not only become resentful of your dp and lifestyle but would become depressive as well yourself.

You guys need to have this conversation NOW and not drag this on any longer. You know this is a deal breaker op. One of you needs to put your big girl pants on and get to the bottom of it before resuming your relationship as if this isnt a problem

@Moonbabysmum

I don't think I've taken anything out of context.

You've changed your mind about children - your 'lets have one child in the future' has become 'I don't want children'.

Its ok to change your mind, but making out that he is being unrealistic, and wanting him to agree that he'd be happier if HE changed his mind to fit your changed mind, feels really unfair. It isn't about him- he's not the one that's changed his mind.

You say that you love him deeply, but seem content for him to give up a huge life dream because its incompatible with yours. Sometimes love means letting someone go, so they can go on a life journey that you can't join them on. And yes, that's heartbreaking, but better than a lifetime of regret and grief from him surely? If he does want to stay with you and not have children, then that needs to be something he thinks about very very carefully, possibly with counselling.

You’re not acknowledging though the reasons why I’ve had a rethink and why I don’t think we should have a child. He struggles to share a home with me and needs a lot of independence, he’s easily overwhelmed, we keep home life very relaxed to balance out his working life. None of that is possible with a child.

I’m not trying to force him to change his mind,
I’m just expressing (on here, not to him) what I hope will happen. I don’t know what more I can do in terms of ‘letting him go’. I’ve told him how I feel and I’ve asked if he wants to leave and he’s so far said no. It’s his decision now.

@OnwardsAndSideways1

Basically, currently you spend a lot of time supporting and adapting and emotionally putting your energy into him because of his illness. That's your choice and it seems like this has worked well. But a child won't do that- they won't be quiet, or give him space, or find other things to do, or not overwhelm him. They will be loud or ill or sick or funny or want to do stuff- and that will overwhelm him. You will end up trying to manage the child the whole time not to bother him, which is already what you do yourself, but it's much much harder with a child.

I think his needs are quite high around his illness, and a child would mean it's almost impossible to fulfil them. You would have to then manage both him and them. The burden is going to be all on you.

Thank you for this, you’ve articulated exactly what I’m worried about.

You're kind of implying that he doesn't know his own mind. I'm sure he is aware of his own MH struggles and as a 42 year old capable adult, has a realistic grasp of what he could and couldn't cope with. Even if he doesn't, and he wants to go into parenting deluded with rose tinted glasses on (as IMO most parents do.....), it's not really your job to persuade him round to your way of thinking. If he wants to have kids and possibly jeopardise his health, that's his decision to make. If a man came on here and said "I don't want to have children but my wife does, however she has a lot of MH issues and wouldn't cope, how can I get her to come round to my way of thinking?" people would be calling him controlling.

From your description, he doesn't have the capacity to take on a child. I don't think he'd be approved to adopt. It's worth reflecting on that.

My BF had kids and she loves them and is a great mother but they're very, very demanding. She didn't want kids. Her husband talked her into it and now does very little.

You have to make these decisions on what people do, not what they say.

And don't marry someone who doesn't take you seriously. I wonder if that's because he'd have to take the impact of his illness seriously and understandably, maybe he can't do that, especially as you're cushioning him from it.

I understand why people are highlighting that it's all about you wanting him to change his mind and knowing what's best for him etc and may be uncomfortable with that.

However, I think you're right. It's all very well him saying "oh, we'll manage" but he's clearly not really thinking through what that looks like. I have a DH a bit like that and it drives me mad because he's right, we do manage.... because I spent hours thinking, planning, organising.

You don't need to frame it as him coming to the same conclusion. But you could try framing it as, "Right, these are my concerns, tell me specifically how you plan to mitigate for 1. the lack of sleep 2. the noise and mess of a baby 3. the fact that best, we'll each get an evening and an afternoon off a week." If he can answer these questions satisfactorily, then fine, reconsider. If not, don't go there because I do think this is 100% shaping up to you being the main (only) parent while simultaneously having to adapt and accommodate to protect him from the stress of a baby.

I think your post about his needs says it all. He has to have his own space on a daily basis - what would that mean if you had a child? Would you be expected to take the baby/toddler/child out of the house? Or keep it quiet because daddy can't cope with noise?

It would certainly mean you had to do all the work while he was having his space.

I think what's happened is that you talked about children early on, but knowing him much better, seeing how he is in much more detail, knowing what a house move did to him, you've realised how much of this would fall on you. And the sacrifices you'd have to make because he mentally can't. When you're not totally committed to motherhood, that's asking for more than you can give to fulfil his idea of what having a child would be like to him.

Remember Martina Navratilova's definition of commitment and contribution. Think of a breakfast of ham and eggs. The hen makes a contribution but the pig is committed.

In the nicest possible way OP, you'd be the pig.

@Feedingthebirds1

I think your post about his needs says it all. He has to have his own space on a daily basis - what would that mean if you had a child? Would you be expected to take the baby/toddler/child out of the house? Or keep it quiet because daddy can't cope with noise?

It would certainly mean you had to do all the work while he was having his space.

I think what's happened is that you talked about children early on, but knowing him much better, seeing how he is in much more detail, knowing what a house move did to him, you've realised how much of this would fall on you. And the sacrifices you'd have to make because he mentally can't. When you're not totally committed to motherhood, that's asking for more than you can give to fulfil his idea of what having a child would be like to him.

Remember Martina Navratilova's definition of commitment and contribution. Think of a breakfast of ham and eggs. The hen makes a contribution but the pig is committed.

In the nicest possible way OP, you'd be the pig.

I think given your updates this is true, unless of course the reality is his need for his own space is not as great as he suggests it is, and as such he feels aware that he actually could cope just fine! But I don't think that would exactly be preferable given it would mean he'd been taking advantage of you all this time.

I don't fully understand your reasons for changing your mind, because I'm not sure what your 'mind' actually is. Its all a bit unclear. Some of them relate to concerns over your partner, others your own wish to have a child. I think you need to work through how you feel yourself.

The first question is do you want to have a child?

1. Yes, we will make it work because its important to me.
2. Yes, but only if we iron out how we will manage because of his condition.
3. Yes, but not with your current partner.
4. Kind of ambivalent - if with someone else maybe, but I'm content to stay with my partner and not have kids.
5. No. I don't want kids at all.

Because you are wanting to discuss with him how you would make it work, but you are equally saying that you don't want kids. You are saying his MH is a large part of it, but also that you don't want to give up your brunches and current lifestyle.

If you don't want kids because you like your lifestyle, then stop blaming him and his MH. If you do want kids, but not with him, then its too big a think to compromise on, and maybe you should both start afresh?

I don't think you'll get anywhere until you have a clear answer to the question over whether you actually want children.

Never JADE (justify, apologize, defend, explain) any important decision. Especially to a bunch of strangers on the internet.

If you don't want a child, you don't want one. Having a child is the most important decision one will EVER make. As long as you are crystal clear to your DP, even to the point of being blunt or rude, you're being fair to him. It will be his decision to stay or go at that point. BUT, if he cannot accept your decision and keeps bringing it up, then you may have to be the one to make a decision to leave.

My DS1 told us he doesn't want DC after DH and I made a lighthearted remark about grandchildren shortly after he married our lovely DiL. He told us his reasons at that time and as disappointed as we are at his decision, we will never bring grandchildren up again. We aren't sure our DiL feels the same, but again, that's not our business.

I always think that everyone should be given one of those battery operated crying dolls to take home so people can get a bit of an idea of what it's like.
My teeth grit now if I hear a tiny baby crying , but only because mine are in their 20s and I have forgotten those years ! When I see people with little children or babies I actually wonder how I coped with those early years as it is tough and every year is a different challenge to deal with.
You do have to give up your lifestyle for many many years, they rarely fit in with your previous life pre children. Just my experience though.

@Moonbabysmum

I don't fully understand your reasons for changing your mind, because I'm not sure what your 'mind' actually is. Its all a bit unclear. Some of them relate to concerns over your partner, others your own wish to have a child. I think you need to work through how you feel yourself.

The first question is do you want to have a child?

1. Yes, we will make it work because its important to me.
2. Yes, but only if we iron out how we will manage because of his condition.
3. Yes, but not with your current partner.
4. Kind of ambivalent - if with someone else maybe, but I'm content to stay with my partner and not have kids.
5. No. I don't want kids at all.

Because you are wanting to discuss with him how you would make it work, but you are equally saying that you don't want kids. You are saying his MH is a large part of it, but also that you don't want to give up your brunches and current lifestyle.

If you don't want kids because you like your lifestyle, then stop blaming him and his MH. If you do want kids, but not with him, then its too big a think to compromise on, and maybe you should both start afresh?

I don't think you'll get anywhere until you have a clear answer to the question over whether you actually want children.

I am fairly certain I don’t want children at all, full stop. I’m not trying to make a plan as to how we could make it work, I’m hoping I can find a kind way to help him understand that his vision of happy family days out and the ‘Kodak moments’ appears to be clouding his judgement. Obviously I could be wrong, but I know him pretty well by now and I know what I do each day to support him. He can go and have a family if he really wants to, just not with me.

Would I want a child with another partner? I still think it’s a no. But I suppose I am less willing to consider it in this relationship because of how much more challenging it would be, and how upsetting it would be if the man I loved was unhappy (and the affect that might have on the child.) I am absolutely clear that I don’t want to leave my fiancé in the hopes of maybe having a family with someone else.

Basically, we are both very happy with our life together and we have a good balance. His health is generally pretty good so long as we keep that balance. So the lifestyle and mental health are both sort of tied up together, in terms of not wanting a child.

Basically you don't want things to change, so you're convincing yourself he wants the same as you do by making the judgement he is incapable of making the decision himself, sounds healthy.

You also sort of talk (ironically) like you're his mother, do you see him as equal to you?