School detentions

[FU81]

I have a real dilemma with my daughters secondary school. She doesn’t often get detentions (in 3 years just 2) but she got kept behind after a lesson last week for 20 minutes and she was late for the lesson. my daily school run is to collect youngest from primary then collect her & her sister from secondary, drop them to my MIL about 12 miles away then onto work. My husband then collects them from his mums when he finishes work. We’ve had the same routine for last couple of years & it works well providing all the kids are on time.
The day my daughter was kept behind messed up the routine & I was ultimately late for my shift by over an hour. I complained to the school who basically said that they can pretty much detain the kids without notice & it’s too bad for the parent if they’re late for work (not their problem effectively). I explained that unfortunately life doesn’t work as simply as that & if it affects my childcare arrangements and work schedule then detentions need to happen during lunch breaks which I have no problem with. The teacher is question was very rude & just sent me cut/paste text from school policy & told me if I don’t like it maybe I should find another school that has policies that fit in with my work schedule but good luck with that. On Monday she was given a 60 minute after school detention (for tuesday) by the very teacher I’d been having these email exchanges with which seemed such a coincidence the reason being that she was late again to a lesson, she explained that she was kept by her tutor after registration for a few minutes so she was running late for a lesson, so I feel an hour is an excessive detention time for the infraction. I called the school & explained that she couldn’t attend attend after school due to our schedule so could she have it during a lunch hour and that I feel the time excessive. Yesterday I then received an email from said teacher telling me that as it was missed she now has a 90 minute detention after school tomorrow, which I have responded that she cannot attend for reasons that I have previously explained, I also explained that I work at a hospital about 40 minute drive away & I’m on a strict schedule & I cannot just turn up late for my shifts otherwise I could face a disciplinary. AIBU to fight against this, I feel the school is being unreasonable as I’m not refusing she have a detention just not after school plus I do feel the teacher has deliberately given her the detention because he doesn’t like my opinion on it.

Can't they get bus to mils in secondary school? Why do they need picking up at that age unless put in the sticks with limited public transport.

@Gliderx - but the school can’t really fix this. The kid does not listen, the mum either cannot or does not do anything to discipline the child. Meanwhile the other kids in the class are having their education disrupted and teachers have to deal with a violent child on top of a large workload and short staffing (as lots of teachers quit due to poor working conditions).

Teachers teach roughly 9-3.15, with a 15 minute break on a morning and a further 45 minutes for lunch.

They have ample time for breaks.

Not in Secondary. Those times are far too generous. Lessons start way before 9am, as does registration/Form Time (8:05am in my school), 15 minute break is spent setting up room, following up the mountains of emails or speaking to pupils who ask for help. Lunch, which in some secondaries is 30 mins, is usually eating at the same time as supervising pupils, running a lunch club, supervising lunch detentions (which is usually the first stage before after school ones) or running GCSE or A Level booster sessions or marking books/exam papers etc.
If a teacher can manage a few minutes to themselves, once in a while, which is a legal requirement, I wouldn’t begrudge them that.
The lack of understanding what happens in schools is prevalent on this thread.

Snoozer 11 - They're hardly going to be locked in a fucking room - correct. They are on a secure site though

you nutter - that doesn’t help

Someone needs to teach you that young people can be taught boundaries at times other than 3.30-4.30 in the afternoon. - most can. Some need detention, some need isolation and even exclusions.

Schools take the safety of children seriously and cannot have youngsters walking off-site at the wrong time because their parents have put them up to do it. As I have said I have never known this happen. By the time youngsters reach isolation their parents are usually glad that interventions at this level are in place. If children are being taught at home to be oppositional to teachers that needs addressing, I’m afraid.

"Why are people so incapable of grasping that we are not all the same."

By people, you mean me? As you're quoting from my post.

I don't have the statistics on it (there probably is some research), and I was clear that I was talking about myself and my experience (which is quite a lot of experience, across different schools). You just don't see hundreds of children in detention every night. It's not that common.

@Snoozer11

All these talking about teachers and their break times.

When I worked in a restaurant I didn't get a break if I worked a six hour shift. If I worked 8 hours, I got 20 minutes.

Teachers teach roughly 9-3.15, with a 15 minute break on a morning and a further 45 minutes for lunch.

They have ample time for breaks.

That's just not true. At the 2 schools I last worked at, lunchtime was 30mins, as it is in my child's school. Lunchtimes have become shorter and shorter to try to reduce incidents at lunchtimes, as well as sort the problem of insufficient canteen capacity - most school now have split lunch so the chances of me being on lunch at the same time as a student I've given a detention to are 50:50. Lunchtime detentions with their teacher arent really possible anymore.

Maybe you should tell your dd off for getting detentions in the 1st place.
The teacher is correct.

What I don't get is why she's getting detentions if she's late to lessons because another teacher wanted to talk to her. How is that her fault!?

Sorry...just read the op properly and daw the reason for detention. Your dd is correct!
I jumpee to the wrong conclusion as i am an ex teacher. The worst behaviour i ever saw in a school was in a very posh private school where they didnt give out detentions as their kids were" perfect."
I had pens chucked at me, and one pregant teacher locked herself in rhe cupboard crying.
I digress...sorry op and as you were.

Saw*

I just don't get why she can't go home instead if Mil's. She's at secondary school! Most kids that age would do this, just happens she has younger brother who still had childcare needs.

teachers have ample time for breaks hollow laugh

Most days start with a meeting at 8.20. Lessons start at 8.45. We have two 30 minute breaks but within that we need to clean down the classroom/set up for the next class, often moving classrooms as my school is a split site. There are also break duties 3x a week, not to mention clubs, kids coming back at break to pick up homework sheets/ revision clubs/ pastoral stuff with tutor group. If I find time to pee I consider that a good day!

Ok so I have now spoken to her tutor (she called me this morning) she did indeed speak to her after registration and accepted that it could have made her a few minutes late at most for her lesson but she was surprised that any punishment other than a few stern words was given out, although she didn’t comment on the teacher who issued the detention she did say she suggests I take it up with the head/deputy as it seems excessive given the circumstances but it was not her decision to make as to whether it is fair or not as she doesn’t know how late she was for the lesson but she would be more than happy to explain what had happened. So I have spoken to the office and asked for a call back from head/deputy today. So this has now gone from an issue of when detention takes place to whether one should have been given at all, one thing I will not accept though is getting bogged down in exactly how many minutes late she was (unless it was 15 minutes or something like that) as whether it was 2 minutes or 4 minutes she was only late as her tutor kept her talking.

Or she talked to the tutor then messed about on the way to the lesson?
Or it’s the third time in a row she’s been late.
Or she got stroppy with the teacher when she was asked why she was late.
So glad I gave up teaching!

Can't she stay in school after the detention?

There will be staff about, if you email them and say if she has a detention then she has to stay until your DH can collect her on his way home.

DD can do homework or read. Pack her some food if she will miss her tea.

Gosh, I think that's quite poor of the tutor tbh. She's admitted that your DD is correct when she said that she was only late because tutor was talking to her, surely tutor could have had a quiet word with the detention-giving teacher and explained it was her fault? Instead she's passed the buck, forcing you to resolve it instead of getting involved herself. Surely the conversation should have gone as follows:
Detention-giving teacher: 'why are you late to my class?'
DD: 'sorry sir/miss, tutor wanted to have a word with me'
Detention-giving teacher: 'OK but please try not be late as if delays the lesson for everybody'
Job done, no?

@Wolfiefan

Or she talked to the tutor then messed about on the way to the lesson? Or it’s the third time in a row she’s been late. Or she got stroppy with the teacher when she was asked why she was late. So glad I gave up teaching!

Or she spoke to her tutor and then went straight to her lesson. Teacher she was late for has been in his bonnet or is just a stickler or whatever and gave her a detention .

@NeedsCharging

Upsetting or inconveniencing a parent is supposed to act as negative reinforcement, to deincentivise a child doing it again or not to do it in the first place altogether.

Do you honestly think that inconvenience is the worse that can happen to the parent?
People can lose their jobs if late!
Zero hour contracts.
Agency work.
Can all be cancelled if you are late for a shift.
They don't care if your child got a detention.
However now because of that detention you have no job. Great result.

Detention started when mothers didn't work. There was no rush for the child to be home. Mum had nowhere to go.
However it seems detention is a 80 year old punishment that has not moved with the times and now working mums are the ones being punished.

Yes this is absolutely right. Also this disproportionately puts women at risk of work loss and income. Does anyone know if it is actually explicit school policy to cause inconvenience to parents? If so should there not be a system where a warning is given to the parent first before it escalates to the point of schedule disruption. After school detentions do seem a dated punishment since modern families mostly have two parents out at work and not waiting for children to come home from school.

But majority of DPs live in properties where public transport can be used to get to school. There's an expectation that secondary school aged DCs are a bit more self sufficient. Of course it can't cover all scenarios, and I'm not greatly in favour of detentions per se particularly with no notice, but @Volhhg it's a bit of a stretch to say it's deliberate discrimination against working mothers.

Yes I work, but my kids make their own way to and from school

@Volhhg
If this was primary school I would agree, but this is a 14 year old.
The punishment is hers not her mother's. Her mother needs to put the onus on the child to find a solution to the problem.
Perhaps the child can organise to walk to a friends house after school?
But it should be up to the child to sort it out as it is their detention.

Clearly rural schools where there is no public transport and kids would have to walk home along unlit roads without pavements need to be more reasonable in imposing after-school detentions than urban or suburban schools on safe streets with plenty of transport options.

OP, you are definitely not being unreasonable to refuse to put your DD at risk of being killed by a car or attacked on a quiet unlit road.

@rookiemere the OP explained this earlier but in many rural areas a lot of children do not make their own way to school. Most people are not happy for the children to walk 3 miles across fields or along unlit lanes with no pavements and school buses may not always be available and have been cut for those considered too close. Public bus services are often sketchy and worse since Covid , last bus back to some villages around us is at 4pm.

Having said that the OP probably needs to start thinking about different arrangements as her children get older as the need to stay late after school often increases in year 10 and 11.

@Peaseblossum22 you're absolutely right to point out OPs DDs rural location. I was responding to the wider comment that detentions are generally detrimental for working mothers.

By the time youngsters reach isolation their parents are usually glad that interventions at this level are in place

yeah right - maybe in some circumstances where kids are really difficult and need help. And where isolation is a real alternative to exclusion.

But the OP's DD does not fall into that category and most kids don't.

Especially the ones whose kids were put in isolation because of school uniform infractions - often because the rules change last minute and their parents can't afford to eg buy new shoes overnight? Oh yes lets lock them up on a secure site. Does. Not. Happen.