School detentions

[FU81]

I have a real dilemma with my daughters secondary school. She doesn’t often get detentions (in 3 years just 2) but she got kept behind after a lesson last week for 20 minutes and she was late for the lesson. my daily school run is to collect youngest from primary then collect her & her sister from secondary, drop them to my MIL about 12 miles away then onto work. My husband then collects them from his mums when he finishes work. We’ve had the same routine for last couple of years & it works well providing all the kids are on time.
The day my daughter was kept behind messed up the routine & I was ultimately late for my shift by over an hour. I complained to the school who basically said that they can pretty much detain the kids without notice & it’s too bad for the parent if they’re late for work (not their problem effectively). I explained that unfortunately life doesn’t work as simply as that & if it affects my childcare arrangements and work schedule then detentions need to happen during lunch breaks which I have no problem with. The teacher is question was very rude & just sent me cut/paste text from school policy & told me if I don’t like it maybe I should find another school that has policies that fit in with my work schedule but good luck with that. On Monday she was given a 60 minute after school detention (for tuesday) by the very teacher I’d been having these email exchanges with which seemed such a coincidence the reason being that she was late again to a lesson, she explained that she was kept by her tutor after registration for a few minutes so she was running late for a lesson, so I feel an hour is an excessive detention time for the infraction. I called the school & explained that she couldn’t attend attend after school due to our schedule so could she have it during a lunch hour and that I feel the time excessive. Yesterday I then received an email from said teacher telling me that as it was missed she now has a 90 minute detention after school tomorrow, which I have responded that she cannot attend for reasons that I have previously explained, I also explained that I work at a hospital about 40 minute drive away & I’m on a strict schedule & I cannot just turn up late for my shifts otherwise I could face a disciplinary. AIBU to fight against this, I feel the school is being unreasonable as I’m not refusing she have a detention just not after school plus I do feel the teacher has deliberately given her the detention because he doesn’t like my opinion on it.

And this is why kids at school think they rule the roost. Spineless parents are the cause of decay in our schools

I am far from a spineless parent. However I am a single parent who's children rely on to provide a home, food, heat, clothes and all the rest. None of which would be possible without my job.

The schools my children are at/went to must use this sanction very lightly as they’ve never had a detention and I’m fairly certain that they’re not angels!

Teaching 200+ children per year I might have given on average 1 after-school detention per week. Maybe between 1 and 2 at the start of an academic year. And I don't think I was different to any other teacher. It's just not that common. By far, the majority of children behave well in school. And of those that don't, the majority of them are re-engaged in good behaviour through behaviour management techniques that aren't after school detention. Either this teacher is an absolute power-tripping loon with a vendetta against this parent, and is now bell bent on destroying her career, or the situation didn't exactly go down the way the daughter is saying.

I agree that this is a thoroughly depressing read - respect is both ways, you should respect a child as a human being

I don't see teachers failing to respect a child as a human being. I see teachers try again and again to engage kids, to help them and to do their job. And I see lots of kids time after time being rude, offensive, dismissive, hostile and badly-behaved in response to those efforts.

There is nothing disrespectful about following the school's behaviour policy and giving kids detentions for not following the rules. Yes, occasionally there might be an unfairly given punishment. Mistakes happen. But anyone who thinks teachers are petty tyrants who need to show more empathy and learn to treat children like human beings would benefit greatly from being a fly on a wall in the average state comprehensive school. I assure you, respect is often only going one way, but not the way you think.

@videobaby123

I've known quite a few kids deliberately misbehaving to get taken out of lessons and put in isolation!

We used to purposely start arguments with different heads of years so we could get put into isolation (especially if we hadn't done our homework for a certain lesson.)
Isolation was actually quite fun in my school

What a dreadful thing to be proud of. Maybe spare a thought for the fellow human being whose day you and your friends made that bit more unpleasant, busy and stressful, just so you could have ‘fun’ in the isolation room. Those heads of year would have spent their days not only planning lessons, teaching, marking etc, but also looking after 200 students, many of whom would have needed care and support on a daily basis, often including really horrible safeguarding issues. And then you and your friends decide to make it that bit harder by starting arguments with them. Lovely. Genuinely this thread has made me so relieved I’m not a teacher any more.

But this is not the case with the OP's DD. She wasn't any of these things- the punishment is over the top and does suggest the work of a power tripping egotist is at play. I don't really understand what is so wrong with modelling a rational and reasonable approach to many mishaps in school. In workplaces that are not schools, most people expect these qualities in management as they are the qualities that generate the most commitment and productivity. So in the 'real' world unreasonable and unkind people don't do very well. I do work with schools so I don't need to be a fly on a wall. By far the best teachers are the kind ones- they get the best out of everyone not the ones the resort quickly to punitive and spiteful consequences.

But this is not the case with the OP's DD. She wasn't any of these things- the punishment is over the top and does suggest the work of a power tripping egotist is at play

That's quite an extreme conclusion to jump to unless you were actually there and saw what happened and heard what was said. Including why the dd was held back at the end of the previous lesson, what she said to the teacher on arriving late and how she reacted to the teacher presumably asking her about it. Maybe the teacher was a bit harsh. Maybe there is more information that we don't know. 'The work of a power-tripping egotist is at play' sounds like you're talking about a Bond villain's plots rather than a possibly harrassed teacher slightly over-zealously applying a school behaviour policy.

Show me where I said I was proud? @Cap89
I was agreeing with the pp who stated some kids would deliberately misbehave just to go into isolate, I was one of those kids.

Clearly that post triggered you regarding your teaching days, I was 13/14/15. A kid. Not a grown adult purposely making someone's day worse. Get off your high hoese

Hardly, the the length of time the detention is for keeps getting extended. The op has said that the way the teacher has spoken to them about it was inappropriate and frankly they sound rude. Why not just be reasonable and find ways to manage your stress if others are getting the worst of you. In other forms of work you can't just take your stress out on others! Children should not be your adversaries, some of them get enough of that shitty experience in their home life- 'be kind' it is not hard!

@videobaby123 apologies if I misinterpreted your tone, easily done on an internet thread. You’re probably right about it being triggering, the hours I spent just trying to do the right thing by the students who needed me only to have have my whole day derailed and extended by students purposely making trouble could be pretty soul destroying, especially if you then weren’t backed up by parents.

I just find the general attitude towards schools and teachers on this thread very sad. The assumption that the teacher is simply on a ‘power trip’ by a lot of posters here is so depressing.

What a load of mince. You need to pick her up as she can't walk home in the dark. You tell her to ignore the detention. When you're called up about it, you reiterate why it's not possible and tell the school you will exact punishment at your convenience. I would also complain about the attitude of the teacher you spoke to. He sounds like a dick.

Depressing indeed! We know only the scenario from the OP. The school may have a different viewpoint. In a school behaviour policy, the sanctions start low and increase. So a detention for half an hour which is ignored, will move to the next stage, which is probably a longer one.

Yes but it hasn't been ignored as the parent has contacted the teacher about it. Surely, you can see that when children spend so much time in a place where the adults in that place have a huge impact on their outlook later on in life, do we really want those adults to be petty and rule obsessed to the extreme! I would much rather children that develop empathy and approach life with rationality and care for others- expecting a year 9 girl to walk home along rural roads in the dark for an hour is not very caring!

The comments about isolation and keeping a child there are very depressing. Children are not there to take your stress out on. If you are overwhelmed do something about it but don't improve your spirit by taking it out on a child. That's actually pretty awful.

Just pick her up anyway. They can't force her to stay.

Completely minimising your daughter's choices and ending with the school can want. That's why behaviour has declined as parents no longer support the school.

@Harriet1216

Unfortunately, the school has no obligation to take into account your own schedules. Lots of parents will be inconvenienced by pupils' detentions and the school can't be expected to pander to each family's individual arrangements.

I think making hospital workers late when she's offered a workaround is just wrong tbh

Teaching 200+ children per year I might have given on average 1 after-school detention per week. Maybe between 1 and 2 at the start of an academic year. And I don't think I was different to any other teacher. It's just not that common

In your school. Why are people so incapable of grasping that we are not all the same. Not all schools are the same. Not all disciplinary policies are the same.

I was quite shocked at how many detentions ds' school handed out (not just to him, to most of the kids) although they did reduce in number very quickly after Y7. Far more than were ever given out in my school. And apparently schools were stricter in my day? Hmm not sure.

@Newrumpus

At my school where parents don’t support detention (for legitimate infringements) we escalate to isolation. A day in isolation has different hours from a normal school day. It finishes an hour later if the issue is failure to attend detention. The pupils don’t have the option to walk out of isolation. It is secure. Someone has to teach youngsters boundaries.

I'm sorry - what now? You imprison the children? On what authority? And how exactly - do you have bouncers who grab them and tie them down?

I assume your school is another of these unaccountable academies. My son's school might have been a bit keen on detentions but at least they were accountable.

Find out about the circumstances of the detention. OP could take annual leave or pay for taxi for MIL and son to wait for DD the take them to MIL’s place. The reason OP was late was due to her daughter - it may have been a genuine mistake (non malicious) - that she forgot the time when talking to the other teacher. But in doing so she disrupted the learning of the other children in her class. If each kid does this once or twice per term, it would end up with a serious amount of disruption.

Behaviour has declined, has it? I was a teenager in the 90s and behaviour was pretty bad in my London secondary school, fights all of the time, organised fights between different schools. My observations of DS's school is conformity rules, teenagers don't really do anything that your typical teenager did in the past, lots of them going to stuff with their parents, including gigs (unheard of in my day). Most schools are obsessed with rules at the expense of providing an education. There is a serious lack of imagination going on and that's pretty worrying for tomorrow's workforce.

Why doesn't your daughter just... not get a detention? Problem solved.

At my dc school children are constantly in and out of lessons for individual music lessons, Lamda lessons etc . No one seems to be hysterical about it , they simply slip into their place when they return or arrive . All this catastrophic I got about a child being a few minutes late .

I'm sorry - what now? You imprison the children?

Er - no. We are a school. Detention is a pretty standard sanction.

On what authority? DfE

And how exactly - do you have bouncers who grab them and tie them down? - You’ve lost me. Try re-reading my posts.

I assume your school is another of these unaccountable academies. Wrong! LA school

My son's school might have been a bit keen on detentions but at least they were accountable - I trust you were happy with it.

"he said that many kids walk home in the dark & I’m just finding excuses to be difficult." On this point remind him that he is a man, not a female or a child.

I've told my children to just walk out of school if the teacher tries after school detentions. They aren't compulsory. They can't force a child to stay.