School detentions

[FU81]

I have a real dilemma with my daughters secondary school. She doesn’t often get detentions (in 3 years just 2) but she got kept behind after a lesson last week for 20 minutes and she was late for the lesson. my daily school run is to collect youngest from primary then collect her & her sister from secondary, drop them to my MIL about 12 miles away then onto work. My husband then collects them from his mums when he finishes work. We’ve had the same routine for last couple of years & it works well providing all the kids are on time.
The day my daughter was kept behind messed up the routine & I was ultimately late for my shift by over an hour. I complained to the school who basically said that they can pretty much detain the kids without notice & it’s too bad for the parent if they’re late for work (not their problem effectively). I explained that unfortunately life doesn’t work as simply as that & if it affects my childcare arrangements and work schedule then detentions need to happen during lunch breaks which I have no problem with. The teacher is question was very rude & just sent me cut/paste text from school policy & told me if I don’t like it maybe I should find another school that has policies that fit in with my work schedule but good luck with that. On Monday she was given a 60 minute after school detention (for tuesday) by the very teacher I’d been having these email exchanges with which seemed such a coincidence the reason being that she was late again to a lesson, she explained that she was kept by her tutor after registration for a few minutes so she was running late for a lesson, so I feel an hour is an excessive detention time for the infraction. I called the school & explained that she couldn’t attend attend after school due to our schedule so could she have it during a lunch hour and that I feel the time excessive. Yesterday I then received an email from said teacher telling me that as it was missed she now has a 90 minute detention after school tomorrow, which I have responded that she cannot attend for reasons that I have previously explained, I also explained that I work at a hospital about 40 minute drive away & I’m on a strict schedule & I cannot just turn up late for my shifts otherwise I could face a disciplinary. AIBU to fight against this, I feel the school is being unreasonable as I’m not refusing she have a detention just not after school plus I do feel the teacher has deliberately given her the detention because he doesn’t like my opinion on it.

@Mojoj

What a load of mince. You need to pick her up as she can't walk home in the dark. You tell her to ignore the detention. When you're called up about it, you reiterate why it's not possible and tell the school you will exact punishment at your convenience. I would also complain about the attitude of the teacher you spoke to. He sounds like a dick.

& the school will simply add the dd to the 'didn't attend detention' list & move on to the next sanction.

It would not be fair of the school to expect parents to 'exact punishment'.

What if, following a sequence of incidents of two kids clocking up enough behaviour points for a detention, Anna's parents are horrified that she's stepped out of line & ground her for a month, but her best mate Badriya has parents who think that whatever shenanigans the two of them got up to is no big deal, so they laugh it off?

That's not fair, obviously, & it's outside of the school's control. Different parents will take completely different lines regarding their behaviour expectations of teenagers & how they manage that.

What the school can do, & all they can do, is deal with behaviour on their watch, & insist that both of the girls serve a detention. & if Badriya doesn't show up for it because her dad has told her that he's decided that she doesn't need to, then, well, Anna will be back in lessons on Monday, & Badriya will be in the isolation room.

Rules have to be as fair & consistent as possible. Schools generally try to enforce them fairly.

I don’t understand how this has got to this point. Surely when your daughter got issued the original detention, the logical thing to do was just speak to or email her tutor and say “Mr X gave me a detention as I was late to my first lesson because you wanted to talk to me after tutor time. Could you confirm to him that you kept me behind to talk to me and that’s why I was late?” That’s literally all that needed to be done and I can’t think of a single teacher alive who wouldn’t confirm that quickly to a colleague so I’m perplexed how this has dragged out so much, the only explanation being that wasn’t the reason she was late or the detention was in fact for another infraction.

Your daughter needs to stop being late. Problem solved

In fact, because being held behind to be spoken to by her tutor is something that can be so swiftly and easily confirmed to another teacher in the blink of an eye, especially for a good student that you say your daughter is, makes me think that this is not the reason your child got the detention.

I think the reason for the detention is actually a red herring in this story and it seems that you would be angry at the school for any detention given to your child, no matter the seriousness because it impacts you. That’s one of the points of a sanction or reprimand. It’s supposed to have impact. Upsetting or inconveniencing a parent is supposed to act as negative reinforcement, to deincentivise a child doing it again or not to do it in the first place altogether.

The easiest way for you not to be affected is simply for your child to behave well. The natural parenting reaction would be to reprimand the child, not the school who is simply trying to maintain good behaviour to run a school effectively. 40% of teachers leave the profession after the first few years of teaching, stating behaviour as the main concern. There is a serious behaviour problem in this country and it’s getting worse. Lateness to a lesson is incredibly disruptive.

You absolutely can refuse to have your child attend detentions but the punishment will simply be escalated through the school system.

*This is all based of course on whether the detention was for lateness that wasn’t her fault (which the school can clear up easily) or if the detention was for something else entirely.

@Morgoth the OP has said that she is happy for this to happen and for her dc to be disciplined as long as it happens in school time .

I think since she needs to get to a patient facing job in a clinical setting at a time when healthcare services are in crisis this is a reasonable request. She certainly should not have been told by the teacher to move to a school whose policies will better for her working hours.

How do you know your DD was late because she was kept behind by another teacher? Just her word for it?

I think the problem is your daughter being late. Why should teachers give up their break time, when they might have a duty or have to clean the classroom then rush across the campus to another classroom to set up for their next lesson?! You know the school policy and so does your DD

:33Courtier

Harriet1216

Unfortunately, the school has no obligation to take into account your own schedules. Lots of parents will be inconvenienced by pupils' detentions and the school can't be expected to pander to each family's individual arrangements.

I think making hospital workers late when she's offered a workaround is just wrong tbh

So, is the school obliged to keep a record of all parents' occupations, in case a detention interferes with their work schedule? I think not. Let's see: ' Oh, Susie's mum is a nurse and she has to be at the hospital. Well, we can't give Susie detention then.'
Or how about, "Peter's mum works in IT and has to be at meetings. So Peter can't be given a detention."
Do you see where this is leading?

Upsetting or inconveniencing a parent is supposed to act as negative reinforcement, to deincentivise a child doing it again or not to do it in the first place altogether.

Do you honestly think that inconvenience is the worse that can happen to the parent?
People can lose their jobs if late!
Zero hour contracts.
Agency work.
Can all be cancelled if you are late for a shift.
They don't care if your child got a detention.
However now because of that detention you have no job. Great result.

Detention started when mothers didn't work. There was no rush for the child to be home. Mum had nowhere to go.
However it seems detention is a 80 year old punishment that has not moved with the times and now working mums are the ones being punished.

In my experience, most secondary aged kids (I appreciate not all, but most in every school I have worked in) are perfectly able to get themselves home from school. If they miss out on a lift and have to walk/catch a later bus then that’s part of the punishment, surely?

Confusedteacher

Can you not at least read some of the OPS posts?

No less than 10 times the OP has said they live rural. Very poor bus service. It's an hours walk down unlit country roads with no path. Being rural there is no uber and taxis are few and far between.

But I am sure you would let your 14 yo daughter walk an hour down unlit country lanes with no path in order to learn her lesson wouldn't you?

I was just talking in general as the discussion had moved on to criticism of after school detentions in general. I also noticed in the OP there is a DH with a car who picks them up from MIL later on, and presumably MIL also has a car if they live in this rural location. Would it have been so hard for DD to have to hang around in the library for a bit for someone else to come and get her, if the OP had to get to work? It is not the school’s problem, they are just enforcing their behaviour policy.

The school is enforcing a 80 year old rule that existed when mums were always home.

Times have changed and many mums work yet this 80 year old punishment still affects mums as we are meant to work, do child care, cook, clean and factor in stupid punishments.

MIL may drive but not have a car big enough to accommodate all of the children. She also may not drive. My mother doesn't due to being diabetic but she lives rurally.

Detention after school is outdated and does not work. It can and does cause more problems than it solves.

@NeedsCharging

Upsetting or inconveniencing a parent is supposed to act as negative reinforcement, to deincentivise a child doing it again or not to do it in the first place altogether.

Do you honestly think that inconvenience is the worse that can happen to the parent?
People can lose their jobs if late!
Zero hour contracts.
Agency work.
Can all be cancelled if you are late for a shift.
They don't care if your child got a detention.
However now because of that detention you have no job. Great result.

Detention started when mothers didn't work. There was no rush for the child to be home. Mum had nowhere to go.
However it seems detention is a 80 year old punishment that has not moved with the times and now working mums are the ones being punished.

That’s simply irrelevant though. A school can’t not sanction a child because it may affect their parent.

A school can’t not expel or exclude a student for punching a teacher in the face or bringing a knife to school or hurting another child just because their parent has to take time off work or lose work entirely to stay with them at home due to them being excluded. The parents occupation in most circumstances has nothing to do with school behaviour policy. It has to maintain a fair and consistent policy in order to be effective. You can’t give some students breaktime detentions and others after school detentions based on the jobs of their parents.

If a student knows their parents livelihood is going to be affected by their bad behaviour, this is enough of negative reinforcer for 90%+ of children not to misbehave frequently or regularly. The vast vast majority of U.K. school children get through secondary school without a detention.

I remember reading a thread on here on Mumsnet a while ago where a mother was livid at the school for repeatedly giving her son detentions for violent behaviour as she had to work so was so out of pocket getting expensive taxis home for him after detention, that she didn’t have enough money for basic necessities. Instead of being angry her son for frequently putting her into poverty, she was angry at the school. A school who only had exclusions or detentions or extended isolations as the only option left to them for violent behaviour as it’s impossible to get kids expelled these days for even the most horrific behaviour.

If a child is misbehaving so frequently in school in the full knowledge that the detentions they receive for it is affecting their parents livelihood and financial situation, the parent has bigger problems than the detentions.

But there is no suggestion that the OPs dc was violent, she was late , clearly not good but hardly analogous with punching a teacher . Other pp have said their schools give detentions for wearing coats in a corridor.

A school can’t not expel or exclude a student for punching a teacher in the face or bringing a knife to school or hurting another child just because their parent has to take time off work or lose work

Get a grip!

If a child did any of those things they would not be getting a detention! Clearly they are bigger problems.

This thread is about a detention for lateness. Stop with your drama and over reaching. It's pathetic.

The problem is that some parents think they can dictate how things in schools should happen. If you chose to send your child to a certain school you sign up to it's policies. If you don't like them then you need to find a different school.

The vast majority of parents have no choice as to which school their child goes to, especially in rural locations where there is generally only one school with a very large catchment. How many people in cities get their first choice school.

That’s simply irrelevant though

Gotta love mumsnet. A site mostly used by mothers.
Mums you working and managing life is irrelevant cos...patriarchy...signed other mums

How many people in cities get their first choice school.

Not many considering the threads on here at announcement time all moaning how they didn't get their first or second choice.

I guess if you have a child prone to detentions and absolutely no way for them to get home independently you and your partner arrange childcare to assume they are picked up at the time that finishes, so 4 or 4.30pm latest in most schools. At my school there is homework club for all years until 4.30 so if they don’t have detention they could go there.

Schools make their behaviour policies very clear! So either make arrangements accordingly or make sure your child doesn’t get a detention!

@NeedsCharging

A school can’t not expel or exclude a student for punching a teacher in the face or bringing a knife to school or hurting another child just because their parent has to take time off work or lose work

Get a grip!

If a child did any of those things they would not be getting a detention! Clearly they are bigger problems.

This thread is about a detention for lateness. Stop with your drama and over reaching. It's pathetic.

The point was in direct reply to yours. The circumstances or occupation of a parent is irrelevant to a schools decision to give out a detention (whether it be for lateness, low level disruption or vandalism or whatever) in order for them to maintain an effective and fair and consistent behaviour policy. If schools gave out bespoke sanctions (whether that be detentions or expulsions) that were customised based on the inconvenience to either the child or parent then the sanction would have no impact. A teacher has most likely conceded so much in behaviour up until the point the sanction is given. Yes there are some schools in the country where not taking your coat off quick enough will result in a detention but most schools generally give out detentions for twattish behaviour.

For the vast majority of children, this is effective. Most children don’t get frequent and repeated detentions because the negative reinforcement of theirs or their parents free time/money/social life/reputation/pride/ whatever being effected or disappointment/repudiation from parents is enough of a deterrent not to misbehave.

@NeedsCharging

That’s simply irrelevant though

Gotta love mumsnet. A site mostly used by mothers.
Mums you working and managing life is irrelevant cos...patriarchy...signed other mums

Why should a school concede more on bad behaviour based on the occupation or livelihood of the parent? Don’t give a detention for identical bad behaviour to students who have mothers who work but give a detention to students who’s mothers don’t work? It’s not a sliding scale. A policy has to treat all children the same to be effective.

The best way for a a parent not to get inconvenienced by a detention is not to have their child misbehave an receive a detention. It’s not the schools fault they have had to sanction.

Obviously in OP’s case, she will hopefully get clarification from the tutor soon enough about whether it was her daughters fault or not. That should hopefully be easy to clear up when she gets a reply.

All these talking about teachers and their break times.

When I worked in a restaurant I didn't get a break if I worked a six hour shift. If I worked 8 hours, I got 20 minutes.

Teachers teach roughly 9-3.15, with a 15 minute break on a morning and a further 45 minutes for lunch.

They have ample time for breaks.

I remember reading a thread on here on Mumsnet a while ago where a mother was livid at the school for repeatedly giving her son detentions for violent behaviour as she had to work so was so out of pocket getting expensive taxis home for him after detention, that she didn’t have enough money for basic necessities. Instead of being angry her son for frequently putting her into poverty, she was angry at the school. A school who only had exclusions or detentions or extended isolations as the only option left to them for violent behaviour as it’s impossible to get kids expelled these days for even the most horrific behaviour.

That sounds like a mother who needs help, actually. She's hardly going to have the headspace to sort her child's behaviour out if they're both hungry and she can't pay the gas bill.

And of course you shouldn't accuse a child of putting the family into poverty, ffs!!! What a way to undermine your child's security and self-worth even further. Hardly likely to a positive effect on behaviour.