Do you ever privately judge people for bringing a baby into bad circumstances?

[Boilthekettleplease]

I've wondered how other people feel about this.

I'm coming to terms with not having a child of my own, because ultimately it would be putting my own needs ahead of any child to risk trying to have one. There's a high chance it would be a medical disaster and I'd be permanently seriously affected, which means I wouldn't be as able to look after the child, or die a few years later from kidney failure.

I'm curious if people would judge me for (hypothetically) trying to be a mum in a situation like this? Or do most people feel that the drive for a child is so strong they understand why people try against all the odds?

Do you ever judge people for having a child in situations where there are predictable risks or downsides?

A friend of mine had a little boy who was 2 when they found our her husband had a terminal brain tumour. A year into intense chemo and radiation they decided to have another baby.
I remember listening to the reasons and I didn't judge out loud but it was very hard not to. The dad died when the new child was 2 months old. It was heartbreaking. I think she wanted to have as much of him left as she could.

I would see that as different though - it's not necessarily a 'bad' situation, even if not ideal for her, as this will be a valued and loved child with a loving mother and sibling (hopefully about the sib!). To me it is people who know they wont be able to care for their children adequately and who don't think they will be able to provide a safe secure environment. No one can foresee everything that may happen, but in a bad situation, why foist that on a child?

I don't judge them, but I do question if the parent is okay when they're choosing (as in, are deliberately ttc) to bring a child into the world when they live in poverty/an abusive or unstable relationship/ have a demanding job/life that means the kid will be in nursery every minute possible.

@FanGirlX

Like a pp, I also hate it when people say shouldn't have kids you can't afford.

This is selfish though. Why bring children into the world if you can't afford to house, clothe and feed those children? Your decision will have a terrible impact on those children's lives and prospects in life. But your right to be a mother comes above that does it?

Different people have different opinions about affordability as well. Many people are poor but manage to raise kids in loving homes, they don’t have the best of everything but parents are fully aware of their responsibilities. I don’t think this is a problen(although others do).

However others have kids with no thought or care - no thinking about how they’re going to feed them, clothe them. They can’t manage one and go on to have multiple. This, I judge.

Sadly our culture reveres parents -and ‘parents always want the best for their kids’. This isn’t true, reproducing doesn’t automatically make you competent.

@Wheresmywoolyjumpers

*A friend of mine had a little boy who was 2 when they found our her husband had a terminal brain tumour. A year into intense chemo and radiation they decided to have another baby. I remember listening to the reasons and I didn't judge out loud but it was very hard not to. The dad died when the new child was 2 months old. It was heartbreaking. I think she wanted to have as much of him left as she could.*

I would see that as different though - it's not necessarily a 'bad' situation, even if not ideal for her, as this will be a valued and loved child with a loving mother and sibling (hopefully about the sib!). To me it is people who know they wont be able to care for their children adequately and who don't think they will be able to provide a safe secure environment. No one can foresee everything that may happen, but in a bad situation, why foist that on a child?

YeH I don’t think this is bad. The child still has a mother. How is it different from a single woman having a child with donor sperm? I have knows people with illnesses etc have kids but they have had enough assets put aside for kids, family all on board and ready to step in. That’s not wrong.

What’s wrong is just having it because one wants it and hoping it’ll all work out.

@TractorAndHeadphones

I don't think children should just for those who can afford big houses and multiple holidays. I do think people who bring children into the world, knowing that they can't afford to pay for their basic needs, are reckless, irresponsible and selfish. There's a whole variety of situations between these two extremes though.

Yes, all the time. I find it baffling. See also adding more kids and pets to already chaotic circumstances.

@FanGirlX I believe you quoted me.

I've written a long post on page 7 as to why I hate it when people say that. As I say, I'd prefer it if we had a more equal society in which people on lower incomes could have 1 or 2 children and give them a decent quality of life, rather than the situation we have now, in which people have children, struggle to cover the high cost of living, and then get shamed for it.

I see it all the time on the Internet, there's a family or single mother struggling, so people inevitably say, 'Well you shouldn't have had children if you couldn't afford it.' And what does it achieve? Nothing, it just makes people feel shit about themselves.

You don't really know much about my personal situation so I'm not going to justify having a baby to you.

I especially hate when people say you shouldn't have children you can't afford. Having children shouldn't be just for the well off.
Saying you shouldn’t have children you can’t afford is not the same as saying only the well off should have children. I don’t know why this line is constantly trotted out on MN

Exactly! Judging someone for having yet more children when in a cramped unsuitable house with no money is not saying everyone has to be "well off" to have kids, it's saying think about the impact on those children of being raised in circumstances that are difficult rather than placing your desire for a larger family first, before their actual needs.

@RubyTuesday70

Having been a child who was suddenly thrust into a life of poverty when Dad walked out on Mum, yes I do judge people who have children that they knowingly can't afford to raise well. I remember coming home from school, being hungry and looking into empty cupboards/fridge and knowing tomorrow would be the same. Not being able to turn the heating on because we knew Mum would stress about the bill even though the house was freezing. Not being able to meet your school mates in town at the weekend because you can't bear to ask Mum for the bus fare let alone money to eat/drink or shop like your friends did. Turning down party invites because you've got nothing to wear let alone be able to give someone a gift. Not being able to go on any school trips and you bin the letters without even taking them home as you don't want to stress Mum out.

Kids don't just need love, they need food, warmth, clothing and to be able to live alongside their peers without every single day feeling that they're the odd one out.

Yes this is the sort of impact I'm talking about. Grinding merciless poverty is soul destroying. And, despite MN stories of children that have gone on to get 1st class degrees at Oxford, quite likely to be repeated with the next generation.

Absolutely, I judge. I came from people who shouldn't have had kids, and the lifelong impact is devastating. I think the reason people don't say they'd rather not have existed is because it's taboo and makes others feel super uncomfortable, but I'd rather not have existed. I wouldn't have known any different.

If anything I think it's a bit of an odd way to look at it, as though any life is better than not having lived. It really isn't, and it sort of lets negligent parents off the hook a bit.

I'm really sorry, OP. I'm infertile and it really, really sucks.

I have a friend who had an accidental pregnancy with a boyfriend. It was clear fairly on he was a bit useless and had issues. She had 4 more children with him. Guess what, he was useless still. She complains like it’s a total shock all the time. They split up and she’s taken on most of the burden of child rearing, no one else is surprised but her.
She also constantly goes on about the cost. I can’t believe anyone wouldn’t think 5 children wouldn’t be expensive.

I think having a society where working means people can afford to have children is right. Having as many children as you feel like, no. I’m sure lots of wealthy people can’t afford to house and educate (if they want private education) 10 kids. Everyone needs to cut their cloth accordingly.

I feel sympathy rather than judging you.

If I was in your situation, it would depend for me just how high "high risk" is - a higher risk relative to an average person could still be quite low. If your death is a likely outcome, then I think you are making the right decision all round

I do tend to judge parents who have already had children removed or are barley coping and unable to meet the needs of existing children. I try not to judge in other circumstances.

I judge people like my next door neighbours. Benefit scamming arseholes who emotionally abuse the child they already had. Lord knows why they had another.

Yes. Not so much when it is accidental but when people admit to deciding to have a child while their lives are an utter mess or have an inheritable disease. I think it is utterly selfish and they are doing it for their needs and not thinking of the child’s.

Part of the reason I do not want children is because of what they might inherit from me.

The other thing, I think, is that it's far harder not to judge when you can't have kids yourself, because there's an emotional jealousy to it.

I know it haunts me, and probably always will haunt me, that my abusive parents had fertility that was like a running tap, but after 20 years of working on myself, becoming independent, and building a life in which I could comfortably raise a child, I can't have them.

@Hoolahupsaresquare

Yes. Not so much when it is accidental but when people admit to deciding to have a child while their lives are an utter mess or have an inheritable disease. I think it is utterly selfish and they are doing it for their needs and not thinking of the child’s.

Part of the reason I do not want children is because of what they might inherit from me.

Having children is always a selfish act I think.

What other reason is there?

@AudacityBaby

The other thing, I think, is that it's far harder not to judge when you can't have kids yourself, because there's an emotional jealousy to it.

I know it haunts me, and probably always will haunt me, that my abusive parents had fertility that was like a running tap, but after 20 years of working on myself, becoming independent, and building a life in which I could comfortably raise a child, I can't have them.

That is very honest of you and I think it must be gut-wrenching to see people who are terrible or selfish parents seemingly pop them out no bother when you can't. It would take a bigger person than I am not to be hugely angry and resentful about that.

To suggest a child would be better to have no life than to have a life without a mother somewhat overplays the (albeit important) role of a mother

That doesn't even make sense. There is either a child without a mother or no child at all. It can't have 'no life' because it does not exist.

I remember watching a documentary about the charity Pause. I came out of that with much more sympathy with women who have multiple children removed but my primary sympathy is always with the kids. These women often were care leavers themselves just recreating their own childhoods for the next generation. Children don’t get to choose what they are born into, parents choose for them and sometimes people are not making rational choices. Thres something like 80’000 children in care in the UK. That’s horrifying. For those people I just feel immense sadness, for the women, for the kids.

I would judge if someone had a heritable condition or life limiting illness which would mean a child would definable grow up without a parent or become a child carer. I would judge that pretty hard.

I used to work with a woman who had 3 daughters who were in care due to neglect, she then got pregnant with a son. The baby was taken off of her in hospital. Yes I do judge her and the partner.

@RobertaFirmino

To suggest a child would be better to have no life than to have a life without a mother somewhat overplays the (albeit important) role of a mother

That doesn't even make sense. There is either a child without a mother or no child at all. It can't have 'no life' because it does not exist.

OK, I'll rephrase it. To say it's better not to exist than to exist without a mother somewhat overplays the (albeit important) role of a mother. I would imagine very few people whose mothers died when they were children would genuinely prefer not to have been born because of that. And they are the only ones with a right to judge.

My problem with 'you shouldn't have a child when you can't afford it/can't afford the basics/can't afford it without state help' is that in the UK, the basics are so expensive - housing and childcare being the most obvious expenses, but then add council tax, rising food prices, rising cost of living - and even being able 'to afford' one child seems impossible for people on low (or even middle) incomes.

A single parent on a low income will get most of the basics paid for by the state though. I think that's perhaps what people object to - someone deliberately having a child they can't afford to feed, house, clothe in the expectation that others will pick up the tab. Then complaining on mumsnet that there isn't enough state support available for them.

@theleafandnotthetree Weirdly it felt really good to read that, it kinda released a whole bunch of feelings in me. Thank you for saying it.

So people object to single parents on low incomes getting help from the state, because these single parents had children wanting other people to pay for everything? Despite the fact that if you have an income, you're presumably working and paying taxes yourself anyway?

Firstly, we all know the stories of the single mothers with 7 children wanting the council to pay for a mansion for them, but I'm sure they're probably in a minority, based on the fact that benefits are not particularly high, and if benefits could give you a good quality of life then I don't know why food banks have become so prevalent? My working class parents, who I mentioned previously, never needed to go to a food bank, so the state has definitely screwed over lower income earners somewhere along the line.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are many normal people working hard on low incomes, or surviving as single mothers on benefits until they can get a job or whatever, many of these people are struggling with the rising cost of living (not their fault) and rising house prices (not their fault either) and they could probably do without all the goady 'Well you shouldn't have had children then, blah blah blah.'