Do you ever privately judge people for bringing a baby into bad circumstances?

[Boilthekettleplease]

I've wondered how other people feel about this.

I'm coming to terms with not having a child of my own, because ultimately it would be putting my own needs ahead of any child to risk trying to have one. There's a high chance it would be a medical disaster and I'd be permanently seriously affected, which means I wouldn't be as able to look after the child, or die a few years later from kidney failure.

I'm curious if people would judge me for (hypothetically) trying to be a mum in a situation like this? Or do most people feel that the drive for a child is so strong they understand why people try against all the odds?

Do you ever judge people for having a child in situations where there are predictable risks or downsides?

Despite the fact that if you have an income, you're presumably working and paying taxes yourself anyway?

Do you understand what a net contributor is?

If you are on min wage and have a couple of kids as a single parent then you will be getting far more in benefits than you are paying in tax / NI.

@LaMagdalena

So people object to single parents on low incomes getting help from the state, because these single parents had children wanting other people to pay for everything? Despite the fact that if you have an income, you're presumably working and paying taxes yourself anyway?

Firstly, we all know the stories of the single mothers with 7 children wanting the council to pay for a mansion for them, but I'm sure they're probably in a minority, based on the fact that benefits are not particularly high, and if benefits could give you a good quality of life then I don't know why food banks have become so prevalent? My working class parents, who I mentioned previously, never needed to go to a food bank, so the state has definitely screwed over lower income earners somewhere along the line.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are many normal people working hard on low incomes, or surviving as single mothers on benefits until they can get a job or whatever, many of these people are struggling with the rising cost of living (not their fault) and rising house prices (not their fault either) and they could probably do without all the goady 'Well you shouldn't have had children then, blah blah blah.'

No - people object to state for help for those who know they can’t afford to care for the children they already have, but decide to go ahead and have more anyway. If someone had 3 kids, then broke up, house prices cost of living rose etc etc all fine. If said someone however went on to have a 4th - that is irresponsible!

@TractorAndHeadphones You might not object to state help for those people, but I've spent enough hours idly scrolling the Internet to know that people tell any struggling lower income person that they shouldn't have had children. People say it all the time!

I would not willingly subject a child to living without its mother. Who is going to love it, dads move on, a new girlfriend or a stepmum is not going to have the same bond esp when she has her own biological children

@FanGirlX

Despite the fact that if you have an income, you're presumably working and paying taxes yourself anyway?

Do you understand what a net contributor is?

If you are on min wage and have a couple of kids as a single parent then you will be getting far more in benefits than you are paying in tax / NI.

Yes I understand what a net contributor is.

But since someone has to do the low paying work, I don't really begrudge lower earners two children when they are contributing to society.

Also, someone else usually needs to be involved to have children. Presumably the hypothetical single mother had two incomes at one point.

I would imagine very few people whose mothers died when they were children would genuinely prefer not to have been born because of that. And they are the only ones with a right to judge.
I imagine there are vanishingly few people who would claim they wish they'd never been born...
It doesn't make knowingly having a child you're unlikely to live long enough to raise the right thing to do, for either the child or the parent.
Not remotely right.

Tbh I judge people for wanting to have children full stop. I know that sounds ridiculous but I have never had that biological drive. Looking at it purely logically and without an emotional lens there seems to be no tangible benefits without significant risk in modern times.

I just don't get it! 🤷‍♀️

Presumably the hypothetical single mother had two incomes at one point.

I always say single parent in my comments because I'm not sexist. You are showing your own prejudice with your comments.

I also live in the 21st century and understand that not all children have 2 parents at some point.

@Moooning

Tbh I judge people for wanting to have children full stop. I know that sounds ridiculous but I have never had that biological drive. Looking at it purely logically and without an emotional lens there seems to be no tangible benefits without significant risk in modern times.

I just don't get it! 🤷‍♀️

Looking at it purely logically, there are also no tangible benefits to being in a romantic relationship either but many have been driven/conditioned to pursue it relentlessly.

there are also no tangible benefits to being in a romantic relationship either
Not tangible, certainly, but not all good things have to be?

@FanGirlX

Presumably the hypothetical single mother had two incomes at one point.

I always say single parent in my comments because I'm not sexist. You are showing your own prejudice with your comments.

I also live in the 21st century and understand that not all children have 2 parents at some point.

I said 'someone else USUALLY needs to be involved to have children', which is correct, usually someone else is involved. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that people who adopt as single parents or use donor sperm are less likely to be on low incomes or use benefits, so aren'treally relevantin what I'm talking about.

You think I'm showing my prejudice because I say single mother rather than single parent? Okay, I'll check my privilege and apologise to all the single dads for excluding them.

I really don't know what that has to do with anything though. My points remain exactly the same

@LaMagdalena
Your comments are mumsnet maths. Unfortunately for you society doesn't run on mumsnet maths.

@FanGirlX Okay, you just seem to want an argument for argument's sake now, so let's part ways and never interact again.

@Musttryharder2021 I know, I don't really understand that either 😂😬

Romantic love it infatuation has always been something I've viewed as a bizarre chemical reaction that makes people do things they never normally would. The main goal or point of any 'relationship' has been the regular sex for me, but I meet those needs with fwb and/or toys now. It would be nice to have companionship sometimes, but I have always ended things once the subject of intertwining lives i.e. moving in together comes up. I cannot endure commitment or compromise in the name of romantic love. The risk of failure and the limits to my freedom in terms of other people and places is not worth it for one person who may or may not turn out to be a cunt. That's the thing - I think we're all capable of cuntishness. The only person I can be sure of is myself.

@Boilthekettleplease

I especially hate when people say you shouldn't have children you can't afford. Having children shouldn't be just for the well off.

Agree with this.

We all do our very best for our children, we really do, I think, for the most part. But actually bringing another human being into existence is simultaneously biologically wired into us and often utterly separate to what is rational in modern life

bringing another human being into existence is simultaneously biologically wired into us

Is it though? Many women claim to have no urge whatsoever, including those with seemingly 'perfect' circumstances. Also, if it is a biological urge, why are some people attracted to members of the same sex - people who they cannot naturally reproduce with? I'm not pooh-poohing you by the way, these are just things I wonder about.

There are some people that are not parent material. Also those involved with drugs and living a chaotic lifestyle. Of course a chaotic lifestyle makes it harder to use contraception.

Then there are those that have serious genetic medical conditions in their family such as Huntington’s Disease. I just can’t imagine bringing a child into the world with a 50% chance of dying of a horrific condition like that.

[quote AudacityBaby]@theleafandnotthetree Weirdly it felt really good to read that, it kinda released a whole bunch of feelings in me. Thank you for saying it.[/quote]
I have a close family member in a similar situatiin such as yours and you have to be allowed to feel what you feel and (in the right context and with people who get it) say what you think. To expect people to be all beatific about it and 'oh well that's not my path' and I shouldn't judge others, etc etc is total bollocks. Life simply IS fucking unfair and random and some anger and jealousy is the perfectly rational response! I suppose the trick is to try not let it consume you but I know from my family member that scenarios can be triggering and will continue to be, just maybe the white heat of them fades over time.

@bluetongue

There are some people that are not parent material. Also those involved with drugs and living a chaotic lifestyle. Of course a chaotic lifestyle makes it harder to use contraception.

Then there are those that have serious genetic medical conditions in their family such as Huntington’s Disease. I just can’t imagine bringing a child into the world with a 50% chance of dying of a horrific condition like that.

Certain medical conditions and I believe Huntingdon's Disease is possible to detect via preimplantation genetic testing (PGT) of embryos when undergoing IVF, so it could be possible to avoid transmitting the disease and still have a family. I'm not sure if this is accessible on the NHS though.

I planned to have 3 children and I wanted to have them close together. I had my first and 6 months later was pregnant with my 2nd. Half way through this pregnancy my first was diagnosed with a genetic condition that has a pretty variable outcome everything from learning difficulties to health problems,
My husband unknown to us carried this gene. My second child was born free of this condition but we stopped at 2 children as it though it would be unfair to risk another child who could have the gene not only for the potential child but for the children we already had.

@Proudboomer

I planned to have 3 children and I wanted to have them close together. I had my first and 6 months later was pregnant with my 2nd. Half way through this pregnancy my first was diagnosed with a genetic condition that has a pretty variable outcome everything from learning difficulties to health problems, My husband unknown to us carried this gene. My second child was born free of this condition but we stopped at 2 children as it though it would be unfair to risk another child who could have the gene not only for the potential child but for the children we already had.

@Proudboomer Sorry to hear about your DCs diagnosis I hope that you get some clear answers as to how your DC may be affected by it hoping forward. I think you’ve made a really sensible decision for your family - as you say, it is also about the lives of the children you already have!

Some people are just not lucky enough to conceive. They accept the situation and make the most of their lives without children. Life is hard enough these days with Covid, climate change and over-population. Why bring a child into a less-than-ideal situation in circumstances that might be harmful to you both? I think you are being eminently sensible and applaud you. Have you thought about alternatives, such as adoption or fostering?

I have a family member who keeps having children in bad circumstances. The kids are adorable and we just get on with it

No I wouldn’t ever judge anyone in this position, anything can happen to anyone at any point in life and you never know what the future will hold.

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned already as I haven’t read all posts but would you be able to adopt? Or surrogacy?

Yes.