Do you ever privately judge people for bringing a baby into bad circumstances?

[Boilthekettleplease]

I've wondered how other people feel about this.

I'm coming to terms with not having a child of my own, because ultimately it would be putting my own needs ahead of any child to risk trying to have one. There's a high chance it would be a medical disaster and I'd be permanently seriously affected, which means I wouldn't be as able to look after the child, or die a few years later from kidney failure.

I'm curious if people would judge me for (hypothetically) trying to be a mum in a situation like this? Or do most people feel that the drive for a child is so strong they understand why people try against all the odds?

Do you ever judge people for having a child in situations where there are predictable risks or downsides?

@NoSquirrels

I think you’re doing a selfless and sensible thing. I expect it’s horrifically hard.

I do think there’s a difference between knowing circumstances are bad and may worsen, and circumstances changing unexpectedly. Bad luck can happen to us all, but deliberately rolling the dice when you know there’s a good chance a child might have a poor quality of life or heartbreak in their future is not something I can applaud.

I’d like to think I don’t judge, but I’m not sure I’d be 100% honest in saying that, no.

Completely agree with this.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

I sometimes judge.

Not so much for wanting to be parents and pretending everything will turn out fine, but I have seen couples having third, fourth and fifth children in situations where the parents have significant health issues and the first and second children are severely disabled. The parents have no expectation that they themselves will be responsible for coping with the situation they are creating - somebody else has to find the (immense) resources to do that, and it is never enough, but they are having another child. I just don't know what they are thinking, because their children suffer greatly.

I think this too...and I have reservation about saviour siblings.....but I am grateful never to have been put in that position.

This is going to sound rude but I will say it anyway........I do find people (not you OP) who excuse behaviour on the basis that "the drive to have a child is so strong" difficult to understand. I am childless not by choice but it seems to me that we aren't animals or alcoholics and not being able to bear one's own children for whatever reason should not wreck someone's life or drive then to extremes.

I'd do the same in your situation Op as I'm quite risk averse. I'm sorry for your situation

Argh - wish I could edit.

The above is a badly written response to @PlanDeRaccordement

Poor circumstances that have little to no chance to improving can't be ignored because someone wants another child

The money won't stretch further, the cupboards won't become magically full, the grandmother already overloaded won't get younger.

However much glitter you pour on, some people's lives are too shit to have a child

No, but honestly, if you mind being judged, motherhood is not for you anyway. There are hoardes of people whose main business in life seems to be judging mothers on a variety of factors.

I know this is just a throwaway comment, and not nasty etc, but I don't think this is a tactful thing to say to anyone who is trying to come to terms with not being able to have a child.

It's not like it made me feel oh, phew - that's a good job I can't have one then, because I'd just be judged all the time for all my parenting choices. Advising me "that it wouldn't be for me anyway" stings a bit. It actually seems a bit dismissive of the tremendous hurt this is causing me.

I understand the point you are making and I agree that mothers are harshly judged for every decision it seems at times, but respectfully I don't think this thread is the place to make it.

Yes. Watching a close relative who has so far had two babies with different mothers. One is in a hostel. Mother's are on the breadline, the father spends his money on weed. I just feel it's very sad that these kids will miss out

@theleafandnotthetree

The diagnosis of very serious illness
This falls under depends in my opinion. Terminal cancer, yes I would agree with you. Schizophrenia, no I would not agree with you. COPD, also no would not agree with you. It depends on manageability and life expectancy really.

knowing the children's would be father is a shithead/abusive
Yes if they stayed. But no if they just used him as sperm donor and promptly left and were a single mum.

being in very poor living circumstances with little chance of change
This is relative because one person’s very poor is another person’s normal. So I would personally hesitate to judge. So long as basic needs have reasonable likelihood of being met even if counting on state benefits, then would not judge.

@PlanDeRaccordement wet to circumstances changing, well we all know they can change. If you can afford child 2/3/4 you can afford to save a bit of money as a financial cushion, afford some contents insurance for your home, some life insurance, maybe even some critical illness cover . Because, yeah, things change and not always for the better but there are things we can do to lessen the chances of that change being catastrophic.

I freely admit that I do judge in certain situations. When it is inevitable that the child question will become a young carer. When it's a deliberate 'oops...'. When it gets to Yorkshire Shepherdess amounts as it's a drain on the NHS. When it is almost a certainty that the child will inherit a life limiting/painful condition.

I'll be honest, yes - but the devil is in the detail eg having one baby young, poor etc fair enough, these things happen but having multiple children in bad circumstances then I do judge

@PlanDeRaccordement Picture a couple. Chaotic relationship, lots of arguments and drama. They rely on family or the state for a roof over their heads and food on the table. They already have a toddler so she's at home without an income, he's been fired from his last 2 jobs for his attitude and is currently out of work. Would you judge if they planned to bring a second and then third baby into the situation?

It's completely different from another couple (or single for that matter) who have healthy relationships, stable income and a safe home, having a baby (or two) but then finding that an unexpected redundancy or illness or break-up after the fact tips the scales in the wrong direction for them.

If the first couple really want another child they have the option to change their situation, to work hard, work together, get themselves into to a more stable position FIRST because it wont get any easier the more kids they have. If they choose not to do that and plough ahead bringing more lives into their chaos and hardship that others then become responsible for financially or otherwise, then yes I would (quietly) judge them.

I would just like to add that OP your situation is entirely different and I don't feel you should be judged at all for your decisions either way. A medical condition can't be planned, foreseen nor changed in the same way that other life circumstances can. to you x

@MeltedButter

Sorry to say this but I do feel like people who are above 55 years old who have children are selfish. It's not nice for a 20 odd year old to start worrying about the death of their parents.

My friends wife died 12 days after the birth of their third child. She was 36 without any known health issues. He had three under five including a newborn. No one knows what’s round the corner.

Yes, but the circumstances were extreme. Drug user, multiple births, all handed over to social services after birth. I don’t understand why she wanted to go through pregnancy so many times.

If a child is safe, clean, fed and cared for then no.

I don’t admire Kim Kardashian for her decision to commission a 3rd and 4th child from surrogacy, fathered by a man who was already known to have severe mental health problems. The marriage to Kanye has of course come to an end. They have money, but they already had two healthy children. They could, but could have stopped at two.

[quote SparrowNest]@Eastie77Returns the point is still the same, even if the % of the population who’re excluded from having children under your rules is smaller.

It’s not something that should be denied to anyone because of economic circumstances.[/quote]
I wasn’t suggesting excluding or forcibly preventing anyone (except for people who have a history of abusing children but that would be impossible to enforce..). However I 100% stand by my opinion that if you do not have the means to provide the basics you have no business bringing children into this world.

That may sound harsh but the reality for kids growing up in poverty is much, much harsher. Do you think someone’s ‘right’ to have a child, regardless of any awful situation they may be in, trumps the well-being of a child?

No, but honestly, if you mind being judged, motherhood is not for you anyway. @Doona wtf did you have an empathy bypass?
Seriously did you put any thought into it?

That may sound harsh but the reality for kids growing up in poverty is much, much harsher. Do you think someone’s ‘right’ to have a child, regardless of any awful situation they may be in, trumps the well-being of a child?

This is the unfortunate thing really. So many people think ‘I want a kid’ but they don’t really think ‘would a kid want me?’ As in ‘would I be a good parent, would I give a child a good life?’ Not op, but others.

OP is in fact making the extremely selfless and, I imagine, terrible painful decision that she couldn’t care for a child due to her health, and is placing her health and the well being of that child’s life above her own wants. It must be an awful and difficult decision to have to make.

I don’t know if this would interest you op, but I have a friend who is sadly childless (sad because it’s not her choice, not because it’s inherently a sad thing). She saw some sort of therapist to help come to terms with it when she was finished having ivf - would you consider something like that?

My friends wife died 12 days after the birth of their third child. She was 36 without any known health issues. He had three under five including a newborn. No one knows what’s round the corner.

On that basis, would you say that driving drunk is ok, because you know someone who had a crash when completely sober?

Op is making a heartbreaking choice. I never understand why some women are so keen to push others to have babies regardless of circumstance (No money? Babies just need love. Already have 4 young boys, no time.and a 1.5 hour school trip and work commute in each direction? You should try for a girl.
Poor health and very high chance of early maternal death? No problem, even totally healthy people die.)

I try not to, but everyone judges:

The bloke with multiple kids with multiple women who doesn't even attempt to provide for them or even keep in contact
The woman with more children than fingers on both hands, who can't remember her kids names and who relies on the older kids to raise their younger siblings
The parents who, suffering from a debilitating genetic condition, knowingly choose against medical advice to have children who are highly likely to suffer from the same condition
People who already have severely disabled children, who then have more children (as in most cases they are either also disabled or expected to become their siblings' carer)

Of course I'd judge.

Like some people who are 50 and decide having a kid is a good idea.

Or people who already have 1 child is a terrible and unhealthy marriage and then decide to have another kid..

Or people who are so poor that they can't afford clothes and food /shelter but still have kids.

Why would you bring a kid in this world knowing you could potentially not look after it or even die a few years later. Adopt a child or foster a child then. You could still have a baby AND be healthy.
Passing on your genetics means nothing if you end up paying with your life and mentally scaring your kid for life

I don't judge on majority of medical grounds no my friend has a liver disorder was told she should never have children but she now has a daughter. Tbf she was also told she wouldn't live past 20 and she's now 40.

I do judge my nephews mum though who so far has had 5 children all taken away from her as she refuses to manage her very serious MH disorders and refuses to take her medications. DN hasn't seen her in 7 years as she stopped bothering to show up to contact and DN has lived with DB for majority of his life.

So I suppose I judge those who bring children into the world knowing they won't look after them and cause that child serious damage with their behaviour and actions yes.

OP and @PlanDeRaccordement - for me, it is when the mother has a painful disease that she knows is genetic, and chooses to have children, knowing she could or will pass it to them. One of my doctors even tried to tell me, “Oh, you could still have children, love,” but I have a rare and incredibly painful disease and they DONT know enough about heritability and it would just be unforgivable; I can barely stand the pain some days; a small child would be just inconsolable. My friend also has a painful disease but she knows for certain that hers has a large genetic component (her mother also has it, and was diagnosed after having children) and my friend still chose to have two children. Our friendship fizzled to some extent after that because I didn’t want to judge her, and it’s just difficult to watch it come to fruition. She’s almost in a wheelchair full time now, and while her symptoms didn’t start until her 20s, now her first DC is already having joint swelling at 8.

A lot of these things, I can see with shades of grey. Though I can understand why @Okbye is frustrated and I feel terrible for the situation @MobyDicksTinyCanoe was in. Bringing a third child into a home with sexual abuse is just horrific.

I do judge. Once you have children you’re circumstances might change. This could happen to anyone and is generally unavoidable, you plan as best you can. What I judge are those who choose to have children and knowingly bring them into a situation where they are living at a significant disadvantage. Sometimes it feels like a persons right to have children overrides that child’s right to as best a start as possible. It also feels like some of those in these situations then expect society to resolve their problems but take no responsibility for the fact they chose to knowingly.

No of course not.

Op you haven't as far as I can see what you consider to be 'bad circumstances'.

That would really help rather than posters assuming all sorts of different things and so the conversation will involve pretty much everyone talking about different things.

Having said that and the lack of specifics or caveats I would mention-

• Women in situations where they are not realistically free to use contraception/ access abortion. Could be various religious communities that are pretty closed or totally closed. Being controlled by horrible man/ men. Etc.

• Girls who are being abused (some circs and does happen)

• Girls who are terrified/ naive/ etc

• Whatever circs you mean presumably it's large groups. Judging whole groups for reproducing is extreme

• If you mean things like poverty then surely addressing those issues should be important rather than just passing judgement

• I assume you don't mean NI which obviously is part of UK and despite law change fairly recently, abortion is very hard to actually access. One way to avoid a baby into circs in the country that you would judge as 'bad'

• Assume you're not talking globally? If you are then that's really interesting. Assume you aren't though.