Do you ever privately judge people for bringing a baby into bad circumstances?

[Boilthekettleplease]

I've wondered how other people feel about this.

I'm coming to terms with not having a child of my own, because ultimately it would be putting my own needs ahead of any child to risk trying to have one. There's a high chance it would be a medical disaster and I'd be permanently seriously affected, which means I wouldn't be as able to look after the child, or die a few years later from kidney failure.

I'm curious if people would judge me for (hypothetically) trying to be a mum in a situation like this? Or do most people feel that the drive for a child is so strong they understand why people try against all the odds?

Do you ever judge people for having a child in situations where there are predictable risks or downsides?

Yep - I do. Those who have multiple children removed by SS then get pregnant again. A friend of a friend was guardian to 3 of her sister's children at the age of 22... the sister fell pregnant again and the guardian was devastated. She was struggling but how do you take 3 kids on and not a 4th?

I judge those who know they can't afford more children and still have them too.

I judge those who have kids then expect their elderly mother to have them all the time. I was in the library in the holidays and this lady in her 70s had 3 kids with her - all.running wild. She was on the phone begging her (assuming) daughter to leave work early as she was past it

I understand the urge, we have 1. Couldnt afford to put more through nursery and didn't want to put onto the grandparents

Fuck, I'm more judgement than I thought

It is not selfish to not have children. It is selfish to have them without thinking about whether you can give them what they need (I don't mean foreign holidays and ponies, I mean love, care and attention).

@supremelybaffled

There seem to be rather a lot of people these days who are all too ready and willing to judge others.

When I was a child, I was taught not to be judgemental towards other people, and my parents were very fond of the saying 'There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Yes but we're not talking about bad circumstances befalling people, we're talking about people consciously choosing to have children in full possession of the facts. That is what we are talking about here.

I especially hate when people say you shouldn't have children you can't afford. Having children shouldn't be just for the well off.
It's not just for the well off. It's for people who can afford to pay for their child's needs
Who do you think should fund them?

A friend of mine had a little boy who was 2 when they found our her husband had a terminal brain tumour. A year into intense chemo and radiation they decided to have another baby.
I remember listening to the reasons and I didn't judge out loud but it was very hard not to. The dad died when the new child was 2 months old. It was heartbreaking. I think she wanted to have as much of him left as she could.

I think you are an incredible selfless person! Putting so much thought into what could/might happen if you had a child.
I think you would make a wonderful foster parent, so a number of needing children could enrich your life.

Honestly, to a degree yes.

I know that accidents happen, and that circumstances can change unexpectedly (I grew up from age 3 in a council house with a young single Mum on the breadline & a dad nowhere to be seen. They'd been married with their own home when I was born) but as someone who's waited for the right relationship, career stage, secure albeit very small home and healthy bank balance to have a child and now fears it's too late, I can't help but wince a bit at tales on here of those who happily plan a family or extension of a family into being without the means to support them, or into a chaotic, dysfunctional or even dangerous situation.

Having children shouldn't only be for the rich at all, but I think it's irresponsible to plan a baby when you're not in a position (at the planning stage) to at least feed, clothe, protect, nurture and shelter them independently.

I would not judge anyone on their decisions made from a medical stand point.

Not the first baby. I think we can all be idealistic and hopeful with our first baby.
Subsequent babies, yes. People bringing kid after kid into crap situations I absolutely judge (privately, and to myself).

people consciously choosing to have children in full possession of the facts

But no one is ever in full possession of the facts because no one can predict the future (not even doctors). You have only some of the facts, with some risks and probabilities thrown in just to make a choice that much harder.

You might have a good income now...fact...but will you for next twenty years? No way to know as there is always risk of unemployment, injury, disability, death.

You might have great partner now....fact...but will you after the child is here for the next twenty years? Maybe, maybe not.

You might be in good health...fact...but you can’t know if your pregnancy will be easy low risk or hard and high risk. You can’t know if you will even survive childbirth....odds can be either in your favour or not, but you cannot know.

You might have lovely parents all eager to do free childcare...and then after baby arrives they can’t due to illness, disability, death or changed their minds and retired to a tropical island.

No clear cut answer, in my opinion, as it depends on the individual’s situation. However, it would be high risk for me to have another child and I therefore haven’t. But, I am a mum and feel incredibly fortunate for what I have. Would I judge? I wouldn’t want to, but I would feel sad if a child is brought into the world by a parent who knows they are unlikely to survive/see their child reach adulthood, but that sadness is for both the child and parent. It is one of my worst fears.

I sometimes judge.

Not so much for wanting to be parents and pretending everything will turn out fine, but I have seen couples having third, fourth and fifth children in situations where the parents have significant health issues and the first and second children are severely disabled. The parents have no expectation that they themselves will be responsible for coping with the situation they are creating - somebody else has to find the (immense) resources to do that, and it is never enough, but they are having another child. I just don't know what they are thinking, because their children suffer greatly.

@PlandeRaccordement people can predict that their life isn't going to suddenly become easier / that they're suddenly going to be able to feed and clothe a 4th child when they can't manage the 3 they have etc

yes

A former friend was in a relationship where her DH dumped her just before the wedding claiming depression. Demanded she moved out when she had nowhere to go - she went back to her DMs in the other part of the UK but her DM had cancer (since died) at the time. Friend was devastated and I was her shoulder to cry on but they did get back together. I never trusted him though. He was a wierdo.

As for friend, she has multiple physical and sensory impairments. She has no family (all dead) and relies heavily on her DH (another reason I don't like him). Her DH's family has a lot of children with ASD.

I was surprised when she fell pregnant as I wondered how she would cope with a depressed arsehole unreliable husband, and her disabilities, she also did not work and his income was not high. She told me doctors had told her her child had a 50% child of being disabled and she'd need a planned C section to deliver.

Child was born with learning disabilities, mobility difficulties, visual impairment. My former friend still has disabilities and no family around. Her DH is still around but no idea how their relationship is. Saw former friend a few months ago and she was very thin, limping (due to her condition), pushing a heavy wheelchair with child in it, whilst husband sauntered behind smoking a fag.

So yes, I judged her for having her child. Never said anything though and let our friendship fizzle out.

@Spottybotty20

I would judge also, I grew up next to a family where the mum was likely to have Huntington’s, she had 4 kids at least one has now been diagnosed, 2 were taken into care as she is now dying herself. Horrific circumstances for the children.

The family believe the stress of pregnancy brought the symptoms out (but I’ve no idea if this is medically possible)
If you have no idea what’s for you then anything could happen, but if you have a good idea of the toll it would take then it’s reckless.

Could you adopt or foster?

@Spottybotty20

Prospective adopters and foster carers are carefully screened for health conditions, as they are caring for children who are already vulnerable

@Doona

No, but honestly, if you mind being judged, motherhood is not for you anyway. There are hoardes of people whose main business in life seems to be judging mothers on a variety of factors.

This is true.

Yes, depending on the situation but I’m general if someone is bringing a child into an unstable relationship/abusive/drug dependency/financial difficulties then yes that is irresponsible and cruel on some level.

@PlanDeRaccordement

people consciously choosing to have children in full possession of the facts

But no one is ever in full possession of the facts because no one can predict the future (not even doctors). You have only some of the facts, with some risks and probabilities thrown in just to make a choice that much harder.

You might have a good income now...fact...but will you for next twenty years? No way to know as there is always risk of unemployment, injury, disability, death.

You might have great partner now....fact...but will you after the child is here for the next twenty years? Maybe, maybe not.

You might be in good health...fact...but you can’t know if your pregnancy will be easy low risk or hard and high risk. You can’t know if you will even survive childbirth....odds can be either in your favour or not, but you cannot know.

You might have lovely parents all eager to do free childcare...and then after baby arrives they can’t due to illness, disability, death or changed their minds and retired to a tropical island.

I think you are being wilfully obtuse. Of course anything might happen to anyone and we take our chances to an extent. Mostly, things go alright for most people. What we are talking about here is something which has definitely and incontrovertibly ALREADY happened so the person KNOWS exactly what the consequences will be. Can you really not see the difference?

[quote Workyticket]@PlandeRaccordement people can predict that their life isn't going to suddenly become easier / that they're suddenly going to be able to feed and clothe a 4th child when they can't manage the 3 they have etc[/quote]
They can say their life probably would not become easier, but no they cannot predict it with certainty.

I guess what I am saying is that lining up all your ducks....good income, good partner, nice home, good health doesn’t guarantee you a successful pregnancy, childbirth or good child raising environment for next twenty years. Anything could happen. And often something bad does happen.

So the flip side applies you may not currently have ideal circumstances, but if you think things will be improving soon or it is worth the risk, that is your choice to make. And people should not judge because just like ideal circumstances now are no guarantee of future ideal circumstances, less than ideal now are no guarantee of less than ideal in future.

What we are talking about here is something which has definitely and incontrovertibly ALREADY happened so the person KNOWS exactly what the consequences will be.

Something such as? I did not realise you were being so specific.

I judge those who have more than 2 or 3 kids. No two parents can possibly give more children than that all the time they need individually. No children should have to bring up their siblings, as in the cases of really big families where the older children are used as free childcare. They deserve to have a childhood too and shouldn't have to pay for their parents decision to keep having babies.

Also judge when someone's in a shit relationship and they have a baby. The baby deserves better than that. I know a couple who did that - freely admitted they were having a baby in the hopes it would fix their shit relationship. 6 months after the baby was born, they'd split up. How is that putting your child first?

But in the case of ill health and the impact that will have - that's more nuanced. My dh carries the gene for cystic fibrosis. I was tested and luckily, I'm not. But if i had been a carrier, we would have had some really serious decisions to make about whether to roll the dice, knowing that a baby had a 1 in 4 chance of suffering with a life limiting condition which would mean massive struggles and daily medication and therapy routines every day for their entire life. I don't think i could have done it. But i wouldn't judge someone who did go for it.

I do judge for sure. Acquaintances of ours are having a (planned) third when they barely spend anytime with the two they already have, the dad has some serious anger management issues and the mum is obsessed with her career and prioritises that above all else. They are always bickering in quite a mean toxic way with each other, and the two children they already have are both showing signs of social and emotional problems. And to top it all off they are always preaching to others about environmental issues, when everyone knows one of the best things you can do for the environment is stick to one or two children.

I agree with PixieLaLa. There are often threads on mumsnet where the couple are TTC, yet the partner is an abusive alcoholic. I don't believe that anyone wouldn't judge under those circumstances.

Having a child isn't a right.

Yes, I've privately judged when someone with serious MH problems decided to become a single parent. I didn't condemn her decision, I genuinely wondered whether it was a good idea given her medical history. She's managed with significant support and I hope everything works out for them. My main concern was what happens if she gets seriously ill again, as there isn't an obvious family member to look after her child.

If you have a partner or other family who could help raise your child, OP, that makes a huge difference.

But the social workers have to deal with yet another child in an already struggled family, the grandmother has to watch yet another kid, the state has to pay put even more etc.

I feel like you've missed the point of this thread completely

@PlanDeRaccordement

What we are talking about here is something which has definitely and incontrovertibly ALREADY happened so the person KNOWS exactly what the consequences will be.

Something such as? I did not realise you were being so specific.

The diagnosis of very serious illness, knowing the children's would be father is a shithead/abusive, being in very poor living circumstances with little chance of change.....just some examples