Compulsory Vaccine - What does it mean?

[WheresYourIndicator]

Sorry for posting in AIBU but I know most traffic is here.

So reading the latest news headlines, Austria and Germany are making vaccines compulsory.

Can someone explain what this actually means? What are the consequences if someone refuses to be vaccinated. I appreciate I may sound thick here so I apologise in advance.

I am double vaccinated myself and will be booking my booster for January but I strongly disagree with people being forced to take something they don't want. Surely it sets a precedent for the future. What will the government try to force next?
Scary times ahead!

No healthcare professional will be required to give a vaccine without informed consent. In Austria nobody will be vaccinated against their will. They will be fined for refusal and, in extreme cases, if they refuse to pay the fine they will go to prison.

Is informed consent really informed consent if the only alternative is a fine or a prison sentence though?

@user1745

No healthcare professional will be required to give a vaccine without informed consent. In Austria nobody will be vaccinated against their will. They will be fined for refusal and, in extreme cases, if they refuse to pay the fine they will go to prison.

Is informed consent really informed consent if the only alternative is a fine or a prison sentence though?

If that's what they choose, so be it.

If that's what they choose, so be it.

So the rich get a choice, but the poor don't? Wow.

People who are overweight ("fatties" - how ignorant you sound) do not infect other people, they only damage (possibly) themselves.

Go and read all of my posts. Cos my point has gone whoosh, right over your head.

Total coincidence that I came down with a 5 month long headache 12 hours after the AZ vaccine, despite never suffering from headaches before.

Could be. It happens.

Would have happened that day anyway, right?

Do you have a record of everything else that happened that day or that week? Any number of things could be the cause.

Every HCP I have seen said they have seen the same thing in other people after AZ who have come to them, but that they can’t give an exemption.

An HCP can give an exemption if they believe there is a causal link. Those HCPs clearly can’t demonstrate that.

@BoredZelda

Total coincidence that I came down with a 5 month long headache 12 hours after the AZ vaccine, despite never suffering from headaches before.

Could be. It happens.

Would have happened that day anyway, right?

Do you have a record of everything else that happened that day or that week? Any number of things could be the cause.

Every HCP I have seen said they have seen the same thing in other people after AZ who have come to them, but that they can’t give an exemption.

An HCP can give an exemption if they believe there is a causal link. Those HCPs clearly can’t demonstrate that.

No, I just have the record of the vaccine I took that sparked a headache 12 hours later that a lot of people, even on mumsnet, complained of, only mine has never gone away.

Why is it so hard to believe for a second that some people have lasting issues? Why the blind faith?

An HCP can give an exemption if they believe there is a causal link. Those HCPs clearly can’t demonstrate that.

Not the ones I have spoken to. GP wouldn’t get involved as I am umber consultant care and two consultants have said they cannot, they can only say that I can have another make of vaccine.

Both agreed I should not have the AZ again. But could only say that I should have another. They said their hands were tied with anything else.

When I got covid, my only symptom was a severe 3 day headache. I’m so thankful that it only lasted 3 days so I really feel for you @Siriisatwat and believe that it could also be triggered by the vaccine.
Scientists aren’t gods and don’t know everything. There are differing opinions amongst them as well.

Friend working in healthcare is worried he’ll lose his job because he doesn’t want to be vaccinated. He said he’s going to look for someone to get the vaccines for him. Am sure this will become a trend.

I really hope that people who attempt or do this go straight to jail.

@521Jeanie

Does Singapore have a better idea - to bill you for your healthcare if you're unvaccinated by choice and you end up in hospital needing treatment for Covid? I don't feel comfortable forcing people to have vaccines, but surely it's reasonable to say that with their choices come consequences? The NHS shouldn't have to be forking out thousands of pounds to save people who had been offered a free, simple vaccine which could have stopped them being admitted to hospital in the first case.

But then where does it end. Smoking, obesity, fighting, falling over drunk, extreme sports, less extreme sports. Most of the things people end up in hospital for they've had a hand in causing it. Bloody pregnancy!

Handing over rights to your body to the government is never going to end well. Do you trust your government with your body?

@SomewhereEast

I'm going to play the history PhD card and say that Covid isn't "unprecedented". It isn't even a particularly 'bad' pandemic in the grand scheme of history (Spanish Flu was much worse in all sorts of ways). In fact one reason why we find Covid so awful is that we're actually remarkably protected from infectious disease in the contemporary West, to a degree which would be unimaginable to people living even a century or two ago (and that's even with Covid circulating...it's actually much less brutal than typhoid / Scarlet Fever / cholera or a whole bunch of other things people used to routinely live alongside). I'm not complaining about this, but we'd probably benefit from a bit of perspective. We really aren't living through The Worst Thing Ever. In fact one reason why I'm uncomfortable with compulsion around vaccination is that I think we need to store up consent and goodwill around vaccines for The Much Worse Thing which could come along in the next few decades.

Yes. This.

@521Jeanie

Does Singapore have a better idea - to bill you for your healthcare if you're unvaccinated by choice and you end up in hospital needing treatment for Covid? I don't feel comfortable forcing people to have vaccines, but surely it's reasonable to say that with their choices come consequences? The NHS shouldn't have to be forking out thousands of pounds to save people who had been offered a free, simple vaccine which could have stopped them being admitted to hospital in the first case.

Completely agree.

@fournonblondes

Friend working in healthcare is worried he’ll lose his job because he doesn’t want to be vaccinated. He said he’s going to look for someone to get the vaccines for him. Am sure this will become a trend.

I really hope that people who attempt or do this go straight to jail.

I tell you those that go jail and stand trial will be those pushing vaccines on those That don’t want it. You are a free human being and how dare anyone push a crap vaccine done in less than a year on anyone. Thank God we have people speaking out even though there are at time being censored. We aren’t having so be prepared to see who really goes to jail when this is over . History comes about again. Not anti vax here mumsnet had all jabs but this one bag! Too many lies, manipulative coercive behaviour that doesn’t sit right with many of us.

@GodIsAVegan

People who are overweight ("fatties" - how ignorant you sound) do not infect other people, they only damage (possibly) themselves.

Go and read all of my posts. Cos my point has gone whoosh, right over your head.

They (and other people who do things knowing they are injurious to their health) take up resources that could be employed for people who do look after themselves but get ill through no fault of their own.

However, it's where you stop with that line of argument.

If they cannot afford to pay the fine they should think again about refusing the vaccinations that more than 5 billion of the rest of us have had

The vaccine is neither 100% safe nor 100% effective. You cannot force someone to have something injected into them that may kill them. Or make them seriously ill. The risks are low but I am not going to tell someone else what to do. I also hope that the Austrian government has robust vaccine damage compensation legislation in place. Remember people have died after having the vaccine. Yes, many many more have died from the illness but the vaccine is not risk-free and I am fed up with people rewriting history. Six months ago we were worrying about having the AZ vaccine because of the clot risk.

No, I just have the record of the vaccine I took that sparked a headache 12 hours later that a lot of people, even on mumsnet, complained of, only mine has never gone away.

That’s exactly the point. You did one big thing that day so made a correlation when there could be a dozen things that triggered it.

Why is it so hard to believe for a second that some people have lasting issues? Why the blind faith?

I don’t have blind faith, I check the actual data and look at the actual information and draw conclusions.

Why the blind faith that is HAS to be the vaccine, and why not do what your own consultants suggest and have a different second one? Or do you know more than they do?

Both agreed I should not have the AZ again. But could only say that I should have another. They said their hands were tied with anything else.

Because on the information they have, there is no reason to give an exemption. Not because they think it’s a problem.

Scientists aren’t gods and don’t know everything. There are differing opinions amongst them as well.

Do you know how science works. Of course scientists don’t know everything. If they did, they would stop. But they do know more than Linda who read something on Facebook that her auntie shared.

I'm not really sure how enforceable this will be.

Could be a phycological tactic, tell everyone they have to get jabbed, a certain percentage will completly, them nearer the date cancel the initiative.

Six months ago we were worrying about having the AZ vaccine because of the clot risk.

Six months ago some were worrying about AZ because of an over hyped media storm about a tiny number of possibly linked side effects. Then governments had no choice but to take unnecessary action to make people feel they were being protected.

3.3 billion fully vaccinated people and another billion have had a single dose. People aren’t dropping like flies because of it. How much evidence do people need that there is minimal risk from the vaccine?

I wonder how many people citing facts and figures about deaths “from the vaccine” are the same ones who have been downplaying the numbers of “deaths from Covid”

@SomewhereEast

I'm going to play the history PhD card and say that Covid isn't "unprecedented". It isn't even a particularly 'bad' pandemic in the grand scheme of history (Spanish Flu was much worse in all sorts of ways). In fact one reason why we find Covid so awful is that we're actually remarkably protected from infectious disease in the contemporary West, to a degree which would be unimaginable to people living even a century or two ago (and that's even with Covid circulating...it's actually much less brutal than typhoid / Scarlet Fever / cholera or a whole bunch of other things people used to routinely live alongside). I'm not complaining about this, but we'd probably benefit from a bit of perspective. We really aren't living through The Worst Thing Ever. In fact one reason why I'm uncomfortable with compulsion around vaccination is that I think we need to store up consent and goodwill around vaccines for The Much Worse Thing which could come along in the next few decades.

Yes, absolutely this!

In fact one reason why we find Covid so awful is that we're actually remarkably protected from infectious disease in the contemporary West, to a degree which would be unimaginable to people living even a century or two ago (and that's even with Covid circulating...it's actually much less brutal than typhoid / Scarlet Fever / cholera or a whole bunch of other things people used to routinely live alongside).

I understand the sentiment, but talking about things which happened centuries ago and suggesting we take off our modern lens is misjudged. Perspective can only happen when we use our lived experiences. We have proper healthcare which means those diseases are not a risk. When something comes along which threatens our healthcare services, the outcome is as bad as a cholera outbreak a hundred years ago. Arguably if Covid had been around in 1918, far more people would have died than they did from Spanish Flu because it is far more transmissible.

How do you know Covid is more transmissible than Spanish flu?

The 1918 influenza pandemic virus had an R0of 1.80 (interquartile range: 1.47 to 2.27). That's lower than the R0 of any variant of covid and means it was less infectious.

@XenoBitch

Yeah, if we do go anywhere with this, I'd say this was the best way to pay for the extra care we'll need

How will someone that is on a low income pay for their Covid treatment? Or will they be left to die?

They can pay for it in vaccination. Not saying I agree, but pointing out that there is an option.

The NHS is and should be free, with treatment based on need. I don't care what Singapore does, but you won't have hospitals here turning people away who can't pay but need emergency care. It's a disgraceful suggestion that they should pay for their care, that's what taxes are for. My taxes get used for people having lots of children, for drunken injuries, for smoking-induced lung cancer and a raft of other "choices", limitation of services for citizens is not a good road to travel.