We can't mention positives of Breastfeeding for fear of offending

[Silverclasp]

Recently there was an interesting thread about a husband not wanting his wife to Breastfeed (he wanted to give formula) posters were highlighting the positives of Breastfeeding (since this was the topic) but there was a response essentially saying that by pointing out the benefits that we are shaming non bf mothers.
It got me thinking that I actively don't speak about bf for this very reason, I feel like if the person I'm talking to doesn't bf it can be seen as "shaming" like I never post anything pro Breastfeeding on SM in case I offend someone. It's kind of ridiculous.
Interested in both sides of the argument.

So say I reposted an article on SM which stated that studies have indicated that breastfed babies have a larger thymus gland than formula fed babies and more tcells as a result. Would this be unreasonable and cause offence to non bf mothers?

You’re choosing the example carefully there Del, lots of people have died from eating carcinogenic foods that aren’t ‘labelled’ as carcinogenic. Plenty of info out there about it if anyone wants to look, yet the packaging suggests these foods are healthy.

I mean I’m not going to suggest that breastmilk isn’t the biological ideal, because I’m not a plonker but if people have switched to/started on formula the packaging seems to be a bit of a weak argument when you consider the world we live in.

Is it easy? No. Do bf babies wake up a lot more? 100 percent.

I'd disagree with both these points in my experience!

Breastfeeding came easy to me. DC2 slept better than any baby I've known or heard of.

@DingleyDel

Do you also get your knickers in a twist about all claims made on packaging? Or just infants’ food?

Generally just infants food. Because they need food to stay alive and be healthy. Infants have no voice so historically corporations haven’t given a shit what is best for them. No one died from not have 100% longer lashes, lots of infants have died from false formula marketing claims. And currently in the U.K. a lot of parents are struggling to meet the cost of formula (as cited in a gov. Report). This is a product that costs pennies to produce. When you pay £8 for a tub, you, the parent
are paying for their false advertising campaigns.

It costs more than pennies to produce, there are very, very specific guidelines manufactures have to follow- both ingredients wise and in the manufacturing process but yes of course they turn a profit. The law prohibits first formula from ever being on offer, and as they cannot advertise, brands that are cheaper aren't allowed to scream "hey, we are so tightly regulated in this country that I'm more or less the same as that one you're paying more money for!". Perhaps it would be better if money invested in breastfeeding support so that those who wanted to could access it, but also if the sale of formula was looked into. BFing rates are never going to reach 100%, some are always going to use it, so why not try and address issues like the price and misinformation, because at the moment the enforcement of a blackout only really harms women who are using formula, and lack of support those who want to breastfeed- shitshow all round. No doubt though if the government made formula and sold it at cost price many would complain it was corrupt, so it is what it is I guess.

Good to see lots of fellow vegans on this thread though, or is the argument it's weird for a baby to drink milk from another mammal just for when they're small?

@DingleyDel

Do you also get your knickers in a twist about all claims made on packaging? Or just infants’ food?

Generally just infants food. Because they need food to stay alive and be healthy. Infants have no voice so historically corporations haven’t given a shit what is best for them. No one died from not have 100% longer lashes, lots of infants have died from false formula marketing claims. And currently in the U.K. a lot of parents are struggling to meet the cost of formula (as cited in a gov. Report). This is a product that costs pennies to produce. When you pay £8 for a tub, you, the parent
are paying for their false advertising campaigns.

Care to back up your claim that lots of infants have died from false formula marketing claims?

@Abitlost2

Of course human babies should drink human milk, it's full of antibodies, protects them and the mother against many illnesses. Is it easy? No. Do bf babies wake up a lot more? 100 percent.

Of course some mother's can't bf but it's a tiny minority. If the amount of mothers who say they can't bf really can't the human race would have died out years ago.
But you can't say this...

It's not that simple though. Lots of people don't have support from others who have knowledge of breastfeeding or good professional support. I did manage to breastfeed but my mental health was in tatters after really struggling to establish breastfeeding with my eldest. It was massively painful, she didn't sleep for more than an hour at a time for months, she lost weight so we had to express and do top ups etc. I did end up continuing breastfeeding but now she's 7 I wonder if she'd have had more benefit from having formula and a mum who was utterly exhausted because even if it didn't improve her sleep I could have at least shared it.

Most people know the benefits of breastfeeding. If they ask for your opinion then sure go ahead but it can be a sensitive topic for some people who aren't able to for various reasons. I know the benefits of breastfeeding but would definitely formula feed any other children I have. I don't judge or try to impose my opinion on anybody.

@DingleyDel They don't have to be anyone's "friend". They supply a product for which there is demand. They make a profit, because no one is going to manufacture something for no profit. It's how all businesses work. No one is forced to buy their products.
There's special non dairy formula for babies that are allergic to cows milk. That's not the same as them saying they can cure allergies.
I've already done expensive research into BF vs FF, when my baby was at that stage, including reading peer reviewed papers rather than YouTube videos by people with an agenda.
I got the whole ForMulA CoMpAnIeS ArE EviLz spiel from the "feeding support" person at the hospital, even though I'd been through 8 weeks of gruelling triple feeding with no improvement, and it was obvious it just wasn't going to work for me. Not what I needed at that moment. I just needed formula, and the formula companies provided it. Without it my baby would have starved. The simple fact is not all women can or want to breastfeed and formula provides a healthy, nutritionally complete alternative.

&Care to back up your claim that lots of infants have died from false formula marketing claims?*

Do you really need to even ask this? Not heard of the nestle scandal at least? Well they’re still doing the equivalent to this day. World wide. It’s estimated around 800,000 to 1 million infants die of unsafe formula use. As for the U.K. the latest gov. Report found that infants were being put at risk because families can’t meet the cost of formula. I hate the way on MN (mostly comfortably middle class) any criticism of the formula industry is taken as a personal criticism. I’ve bought formula myself. No one should be comfortable with the way these companies behave.

static1.squarespace.com/static/59f75004f09ca48694070f3b/t/5c502e35758d46fce508ddb3/1548758582085/FINAL-APPGIFI-Jan19-pages.pdf

On one point I totally agree. I’ve said already that the nhs does a big disservice to parents by not educating about formula,

@Abitlost2 FFS. It's not a "tiny minority". There have always been many women who for whatever reason have been unable to produce enough milk, or their baby didn't feed well, or they were unable to BF altogether. Throughout history wet nursing was common, as well as very early weaning and unsafe breast milk alternatives. No the human race hasn't died out but lots of babies have got ill or died along the way from malnutrition/failure to thrive/unsafe breast milk alternatives, before formula was invented. Preventable deaths, which are now prevented thanks to the existence of formula.

@Tabbacus it's a long time ago but thousands of babies died as a result of the lies Nestle and other formula companies put on their packaging.

It's estimated that approximately 66,000 infant deaths in 1981 at the peak of the infant formula controversy.

www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/nestle-baby-milk-scandal-food-industry-standards

No one is forced to buy their products

Yet we have pages and pages of women here saying they didn’t chose to formula feed. Funny that. As it’s a subject you clearly feel passionately about I’m asking you to devote 20 mins of your time to watch that lecture by a Dr. I think nhs prescriptions for nutramigen and the like have gone up something like 600% in the last few years. If you agree with the behaviour displayed in that lecture (bypassing the U.K. FSA before launch a new product, to name one misdemeanour) or falsely advertising the benefits of probiotics then I’m not sure what else to say really.

@DingleyDel

&Care to back up your claim that lots of infants have died from false formula marketing claims?*

Do you really need to even ask this? Not heard of the nestle scandal at least? Well they’re still doing the equivalent to this day. World wide. It’s estimated around 800,000 to 1 million infants die of unsafe formula use. As for the U.K. the latest gov. Report found that infants were being put at risk because families can’t meet the cost of formula. I hate the way on MN (mostly comfortably middle class) any criticism of the formula industry is taken as a personal criticism. I’ve bought formula myself. No one should be comfortable with the way these companies behave.

static1.squarespace.com/static/59f75004f09ca48694070f3b/t/5c502e35758d46fce508ddb3/1548758582085/FINAL-APPGIFI-Jan19-pages.pdf

On one point I totally agree. I’ve said already that the nhs does a big disservice to parents by not educating about formula,

Of course I know about Nestle, although strictly it wasn't the formula but the lack of access to clean water and not being able to sanitise bottles. Still abhorrent of them and absolutely outrageous, but your post reads as though you are suggesting this is the case today and that formula is unsafe, it isn't. People not being able to afford formula (anyone in this country can access healthy start vouchers through their health visitor if needed, it's actually the only referral that is genuinely straightforward) again isn't the formula itself. Statements such as yours which aren't explained will just scare some reading through who already aren't sure because the NHS does naff all to support women following birth really.

@DingleyDel UNSAFE formula use, yes. In countries with unclean water and where people don't have access to hygienic formula making equipment and facilities. They've died from the unclean water, not the formula itself.
Made correctly, formula is perfectly safe. No babies in the developed world are dying from it.
The Nestle scandal was more than 30 years ago and a lot has changed since then, including a tightening up of the rules on advertising.
People struggling to pay for formula is down to poverty, not the fault of the formula. No one is taking things personally, just calling out some of the ridiculous claims being peddled about formula.

Also where are they still doing this today? Again what time frame and where is your statistic of 800k to a million from?

No one should be comfortable with the way these companies behave.

Do you only use products you feel comfortable with the behaviour of the company that produces them? Or is it just women, new mums, should feel bad about? Keen to hear what ideas you have about how to better demand the industry acts though.

By the way I'm not biased towards either, breastfeeding is incredible, and formula is one of the greatest inventions of the last however many years in my mind. But these claims, statements without facts to back it up on both sides for and against are ridiculous.

How the tables have turned then. 13 years ago when I had my first baby other women gleefully and regularly told formula feeding mothers they were terrible people. I'm glad to read that you thought of those not in the position of breast feeding before posting what you knew would make them feel bad. Thinking of others is a good thing and I wish more people had that attitude when my children were babies.

www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/baby-friendly-action-on-breastfeeding/

Nope. Children die today because of unsafe formula use. Or lack of breastmilk, whichever we prefer. It’s not ‘just’ dirty water. Formula is marketed in different countries with different ingredients depends what they can get away with and what they think the market wants. So in ‘developing’ markets the formula is full of sugar so babies take to it. Did you happen to watch that bbc program on processed food that was on earlier in the year? Nestle send fucking boats up rivers in rural Brazil to sell formula.

Thankfully, formula in the U.K. is not actively dangerous or harmful as I’ve already said on this thread. But I do find MC mother’s singing it’s praises problematic. I’d actually like to see formula heavily subsidised or free to those that need it. If so many women can’t b/feed it’s a very necessary product that shouldn’t be left in the hands of unscrupulous companies.

Again, you're quoting a biased source with an agenda. The Baby Friendly Initiative's whole purpose is to promote BF so they're hardly going to be singing the praises of formula.
I do actually agree that formula should be subsided and available for free on a means-tested basis.

@DingleyDel

www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/baby-friendly-action-on-breastfeeding/

Nope. Children die today because of unsafe formula use. Or lack of breastmilk, whichever we prefer. It’s not ‘just’ dirty water. Formula is marketed in different countries with different ingredients depends what they can get away with and what they think the market wants. So in ‘developing’ markets the formula is full of sugar so babies take to it. Did you happen to watch that bbc program on processed food that was on earlier in the year? Nestle send fucking boats up rivers in rural Brazil to sell formula.

Thankfully, formula in the U.K. is not actively dangerous or harmful as I’ve already said on this thread. But I do find MC mother’s singing it’s praises problematic. I’d actually like to see formula heavily subsidised or free to those that need it. If so many women can’t b/feed it’s a very necessary product that shouldn’t be left in the hands of unscrupulous companies.

I mean this isn't saying that 800,000 children a year die because they're formula fed, it is saying that hypothetically if very high percentages breast fed then:

New estimates produced for the two-part series reveal that increasing breastfeeding to near-universal levels for infants and young children could save over 800,000 children’s lives a year worldwide (equivalent to 13% of all deaths in children under two) and prevent an extra 20,000 deaths from breast cancer every year.

Which isn't the same as what you're saying. Its a shame unicef hasn't referenced studies and papers though, you'd expect an organisation such as them to be keen to support what they're saying.

Why do you just see middle class mothers praising it as problematic? Should people in this country not use it, or feel bad about using it because of less stringent rules elsewhere?

I’d actually like to see formula heavily subsidised or free to those that need it

It is, you can get vouchers for it where I am. If you can’t afford it.

Enjoy your latte🥲

Before I had my first baby I thought you basically just hooked yourself up to a pump and it would all flow out, like a cow 🤣. I can imagine if I hadn’t had good support and confirmation that my baby was actually getting milk the tiny dribbles I was producing would have terrified me

Yes very true. I had at least 3 friends who did look like they were producing milk like a cow though - constant flow from the start feeding or pump. They were the ones who felt engorged, had milk dripping down their top, or had to wear pads in their bras, whose boobs leaked when they heard another baby cry. God I wished I was like that. What signs are you talking about? I couldn't pump anything but knew that did not mean my supply was not enough. But I was never engorged, never felt heavy, never had a contented post-fed child, baby was fitful, didn't sleep. What signs would have told me I had enough milk?

I take loads of med and have always wondered whether increased rates of medications are impacting on milk production - if it were that might account for some of the big variance between different countries. I was also ill after each birth which I gather can impact on milk production.

[quote Yoyomelon]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee you are assuming that there are lots of people on OPs Facebook page (or whatever) who desperately wanted to breastfeed but could not do so..... I don't buy that. I would put good money on it that the majority of those on her page who are not breastfeeding chose not to do so (the right decisionfor them and their family). Just because you "feel judged" by a science article doesn't mean that people should not share information that they find interesting. If we were to stop doing things for fear one person might be sensitive to it we wouldn't leave the house.[/quote]
I know we all live in our own bubbles but I have never met a woman who chose not to breastfeed. I've met many who did not feel able to. I am not arguing that people should not share things they find interesting, I am simply suggesting that people actually listen to the very large number of women who've felt - no actually been - judged by others and be sensitive about how they share things. You can see the judgement all over this thread - lots of saying that people are choosing not to rather than can't, saying that feeding is a bare minimum, saying that those who commit to it can manage it. You'd have to be an idiot not to see how awful those sorts of comments and as OP says that some of the people on her thread are not BF, it would not be nice to share things without regard to the trauma that those women may have suffered at the hands of society and other women.

I had a straight forward birth despite the fact that I had my hospital ringing me constantly because my baby didn't come on her due date, meaning I spent the last 5 days of my pregnancy frightened and upset. I am enormously proud of myself for sticking to my guns and having my baby at home, for making an informed decision about what I wanted and sticking to it

Well, as things turned out ok and you had a straighforward birth with no complications I personally think you should consider yourself quite lucky.

I wasn't so lucky, and was grateful to be in hospital when I lost 5 pints of blood when the placenta ripped away too fast, too soon and the team were torn between dealing with my newborn and the haemorrage that followed. Massive ocean of blood that scared even the nurses.
Most especially the trainee midwife who was there helping me. She went batshit and said "Oh my bloody god!"

Fortunately, being in a hospital setting and possibly bleeding unto death, they had a few A&E doctors and a couple of consultants hanging around who thankfully knew what to do to save my life, and put me on a blood transfusion drip so I'd be OK the next morning.

I was OK the next morning. And excessively grateful, as you can imagine. Most births are not like mine was.

I just found this poster a bit smug. Easy normal birth.
Proud of sticking to her guns. Hospital rang her
constantly to check she was ok. She was not happy with that. And that's a reason for complaint. "My healthcare provider tried to look after me too much"

I'd have been pleased that they cared enough.

If the amount of mothers who say they can't bf really can't the human race would have died out years ago.
But you can't say this...

You just did. My daughter was born with multiple disabiliites.
She has no suck reflex. I spent the first year of her life ( first baby) squirting it into her mouth, little by little from a bottle. Spent all day and night doing it, tbh. No professional recognised this at all. Thought I was a really crap mother. Nevertheless, without any help, I fed her and she thrived.
I weaned her onto porridge at 12 weeks. She was starving for food.
Nobody believed me that she couldn't suck. They believe me now, Now that they've diagnosed her and her syndrome is more recognised and diagnosed.

Just don't be so cocky. You have no idea what others are going
through. You have, thus far, an normal NT baby. Don't knock others for coping as best they can.

I don't know the statistics, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a high percentage of women have problems establishing breastfeeding, as I did and so did my Mum.

I was able to afford an electric pump and pay for a lactation consultant, literally did everything to establish bf and it was still a battle. At one point I was pumping and then feeding DD with a special bottle designed for babies who have problems sucking, because she literally wouldn't/couldn't latch onto my breast, despite being full-term with no health problems. It did get easier and I managed to breast feed her for 10 months, but still needed to top up with pumped milk and formula in a special bottle as she was such a poor sucker.

I still don't really understand what the problem was, but it was rough!
So in answer to the PP's original question, please be very mindful of people's feelings when posting anything about bf. It's not at all easy for some Mums and babies.