To think the Government don't understand where "the north" actually is?

[AdamRyan]

Government have scrapped the Leeds extension of HS2, so it now goes to Manchester. There will be faster trains to Sheffield as well. This apparently is to enable levelling up of "The North"
www.bbc.co.uk/news

AIBU to think Manchester and Sheffield are barely The North in an English context, let alone when you add in Scotland? What exactly does this do for the most deprived communities in the North East and the Lakes?

I'm so annoyed, the North of the UK just constantly gets left behind :(

The North is just past Watford.

@TheDrsDocMartens

I think we should be starting a Celtic arc with Cornwall/Devon/Wales/Liverpool upwards (including Scotland) joining forces as we all get ignored or lumped in with other places we have nothing in common with! #NotJustForHolidays campaign.

I’m in Devon.

And that wouldn’t go down very well.

@MoonlightApple

Ask someone how they pronounce the word BATH where they’re from and you’ll soon work out if it’s in the north or not

On a more serious note, the share of infrastructure spending around the UK is not and never has been equal. The government should do like medieval courts and move around to different parts of the country every 6 months. That would certainly improve the transport links!

Except, having lived in Bath for a while - actual natives who were born and bred there use the proper shortened form - it's only those from the South East of England (or some parts of Harrogate or Edinburgh) who pronounce it Barrrrrrrrth.

YANBU

There are over 260 miles of Northern England between Manchester and Scotland. And over 300 miles of The North between Sheffield and Scotland.

@Knickynackynoo

Good re HS2 I used to live near Leeds London is so easy to get to on the train (2hrs), we used to go on a Saturday for lunch and drinks and come back in the evening it doesn't need HS2. What is needed is better transport systems in and 'The North' It was far easier for me to get to London by train than it was to get to Manchster which I ridiculous.

And no the politicians don't have a clue, I watched PMQ yesterday when they were talking about this and Bortis mentioned a load of random places but never once mentioned Yorkshire, the biggest county in the North nor did he mention anywhere further north than Leeds!

You realise that the loss of HS2 will mean that journeys from Leeds (plus the rest of the North East, Edinburgh and Aberdeen) towards Birmingham and the West Country will continue to be slow and overcrowded? Birmingham to Leeds times would have halved.

I agree with pp that better links between the northern cities are more needed than HS2. Liverpool to London Euston takes two hours. We often go for the day. What we need is better commuter trains in to Manchester and Leeds. Sheffield takes ages to get to.
Also I hope everyone saying the north starts at Watford is joking 😂😂😂

I am from Huddersfield which is between Leeds and Manchester and definitely, completely, 100% Northern English. I get frustrated when people talk as if there are 2 options. The Midlands is a thing! Nobody from Worcester calls themselves a southerner.

For me, the line goes through Stoke. And yep, Manchester and Liverpool are just about above that, but any provision for them and them alone does not benefit "the North" any more than investment in Lomdom benefits me in Wiltshire.

I’m torn with this decision. I love on the border of west and north yorkshire. The train from York to London takes about 2 hours. HS2 from my understanding would have reduced that by 20 mins. Is 20 minutes quicker really worth all the money and upheaval of the new railway line?

However on the flipside it feela like yet again we have been forgotten

Of course Manchester is considered to be in the North of England . Yes there are places more northerly in England, but so what? I would say, ‘the North’ starts at the level of South Cheshire.

People in Manchester definitely identify as being “Northerners” anyway.

As for Scotland, that’s another country so irrelevant.

As for Scotland, that’s another country so irrelevant

Until Scotland mention independence and then the government suddenly switches from "they're a separate country" to "but we're one nation..."

Except, having lived in Bath for a while - actual natives who were born and bred there use the proper shortened form - it's only those from the South East of England (or some parts of Harrogate or Edinburgh) who pronounce it Barrrrrrrrth.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone interested how this is pronounced, I want to say ‘Ba’ but that is probably wrong

I say bath not barth

@ToykotoLosAngeles
For me, the line goes through Stoke.

Which of the six towns are in the north? Just asking.

Governments think the north begins and ends in Manchester.

The likes of Andy Burnham going on about 'the north' when in reality he just wants more for Manchester and is obliged.

Manchester gets more investment than the rest of the north put together.

I don't particularly get the arguments about where encompasses The North. When I visit Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc I very much feel like I'm in a Northern city where people would talk to me. I talk to people everywhere though. Last time I visited London (I'm from Co Durham) I got talking to another mam on the South Bank who gave me food for my kid who was complaining he needed a snack. She went out of her way to make sure I thought people from London were friendly. People are people wherever they're from.

What's conflating is the 'east-west' in terms of the northern boundaries.

Nottingham for example would generally be regarded as the Midlands but it's far north of Birmingham. Are Staffordshire/Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire North or Midlands?

A place like Skegness (right on the east coast) doesn't seem like a northern town, but it's on line with Cheshire which is very much in the north.

Manchester is definitely in the North of England, but it's towards the south of The North! And it's not the whole of the North. I'm a Mancunian who now lives elsewhere. I love Manchester but do agree that there is a tendency, even for people who live there, never mind politicians etc to view it as synonymous with the North and to forget that there is a huge chunk of the country further North.
The North West is very Manchester-centric in many ways, both in major ways like funding of public services and less obvious but still important ways like the organisation of sports etc. My DS plays a couple of sports at a reasonably good level and my DD used to do something else and we more or less resigned ourselves to a lot of travel for both training and competition. But I did get annoyed recently and pointed out to the organising body that holding what is supposed to be a "regional" youth eventthat requires you to be in central Manchester by 8am seriously disadvantages children from a large part of the region. From where I live it would be a 2.5 hour drive, possibly more given rush hour traffic, and for anyone reliant on public transport it is physically impossible - there simply isn't a train that gets there in time. I was met by a blank look. Trivial in the great scheme of things I know, but it is indicative of a wider attitude.
It's difficult, because when you look at populations, a very large number of people do live in or close to the major cities so it is understandable that a lot of focus and resources go there. But lots of us live in smaller towns, villages, semi rural and rural areas with very little in common with Manchester. In my professional life I've heard people stand up in major conferences talking about "the regional picture" or "the needs of the region" when I know that they have never visited our location, probably couldn't find us on the map, and have absolutely no idea what the "picture" or "needs" are here. Or interest come to that. It certainly can be frustrating.

It's weird how the Midlands hasnt been more sexed up. Manchester got a massive clean up, Liverpool had a huge makeover, Sheffield got glammed up. Leeds I think they could really do more with. But the Midlands is right there basically on the doorstep to all important London but just hasnt been properly rebranded. I know they have done a lot of work on Birmingham but still nobody wants to go there in the same way they do the northern cities. And what's going on with Nottingham? It's really lagging. Other than that I cant think of any other Midlands cities that are really very evocative. The Midlands is definitely the culturally forgotten part of the UK in terms of sex appeal.

HS2 from my understanding would have reduced that by 20 mins. Is 20 minutes quicker really worth all the money and upheaval of the new railway line?

It shouldn't have been sold as a speed issue , though the government talked that up rather than a capacity issue. The speed was a product of modern railways rather than the one reason this was proposed. It was to put more high speed services onto and free up space for local services and freight .

At least ‘The North’ gets mentioned. The Midlands never does. Southerners say it’s north. Northerners say it’s south. And don’t get me started on Wales...

I’m fairly sure that if put on the spot with this question, the answer from Dominic Raab would be “Euston Station”...
Agree, OP!

This

[quote Knickynackynoo]@Hemingwayscats do you really think so it's already so easy to get to London from Leeds - 2hr 15 or thereabouts (plus you've also got the smaller northern towns of wakefield and Doncaster on that line so it serves a big proportion of yorkshire) 2 trains an hr which are on the whole very reliable. It would be have been easier for me to work in London than it would have Manchester or Liverpool. What he North really needs is better connectivity between to cities, this would open up so many more opportunities for people than being able to get to London in under 2 hrs.[/quote]
Completely agree with this. The train from
Liverpool to Manchester can take an hour!

It's weird how the Midlands hasnt been more sexed up. Manchester got a massive clean up, Liverpool had a huge makeover, Sheffield got glammed up. Leeds I think they could really do more with. But the Midlands is right there basically on the doorstep to all important London but just hasnt been properly rebranded. I know they have done a lot of work on Birmingham but still nobody wants to go there in the same way they do the northern cities. And what's going on with Nottingham? It's really lagging. Other than that I cant think of any other Midlands cities that are really very evocative. The Midlands is definitely the culturally forgotten part of the UK in terms of sex appeal.

Because the Midlands doesn't feel sorry for itself, it doesn't make a song and dance about being forgotten etc so there's less political incentive to demonstrate money being spent in that area. I think at least!

@Porcupineintherough

Does anybody have an idea of how the population of England breaks down between the regions?

info from here