To think the Government don't understand where "the north" actually is?

[AdamRyan]

Government have scrapped the Leeds extension of HS2, so it now goes to Manchester. There will be faster trains to Sheffield as well. This apparently is to enable levelling up of "The North"
www.bbc.co.uk/news

AIBU to think Manchester and Sheffield are barely The North in an English context, let alone when you add in Scotland? What exactly does this do for the most deprived communities in the North East and the Lakes?

I'm so annoyed, the North of the UK just constantly gets left behind :(

@HarrietsChariot

The north is the line between the Severn Estuary and The Wash. Leicester, Lincoln, Birmingham and Cardiff are all north. Northampton, Peterborough and Norwich are all south.

Some of those ate in counties with 'Midlands' in them. And Cardiff is in Wales, which cannot be part of the North of England.

*are

I mean, Manchester is in the North. But only barely. Same with Sheffield. Fucks me right off that the Government constantly say they are investing in the Northern Powerhouse by which they mean Manchester.
There needs to be better transport links across the North and into Scotland, not focussed on links into London. The Government need to start focusing on Northern England as a region, and if they conservatives want to appeal to unionists and Scottish voters they need to benefit links between Scotland and England too

I get what you mean OP, Manchester is North but it's only a tiny part of it, and the rest is ignored.

I don't get why the government keep going on about levelling up. What they claim to be doing (which we know will never come true) is communism, and they despise communism.

I’m in Sheffield. It’s definitely north. So is Manchester and Leeds.

@PinkWednesdays

The north is always north England. It’s never ever meant to be Scotland. You’d even hear the North and Scotland, because they’re two different things.

Only if you are English.

If someone in Edinburgh talks about “going up North”, they definitely don’t mean they are actually travelling in a southerly direction to the North of England.

The HS2 doesn't benefit the most of the south either. I live in Hertfordshire and will take me a couple of hours to get to the nearest station.

The government knows exactly where the north of England is but what the north needs has completely missed them! Never mind hs2, the rail line between Manchester and Leeds is in desperate need of upgrading. It's ridiculous in this day and age that such an important route is served by slow, chugging, over crowded diesel trains. If the promised investment in this rail line had materialised that would have made a significant impact on the region’s economic prospects.

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

I'm from Leeds and consider both Leeds and Manchester to be north in terms of England. Obviously if we're taking into account Scotland they're only barely in the middle.

As pointed out by a PP though they're certainly not the 'entire' north and I don't see how a train line to Manchester or is going to have any benefit at all for folks anywhere outside of Greater Manchester.

Anywhere north of London is the north.

@TrickorTreacle
"Ponce...Perfumed ponce!"

I agree with the point op is making that the North is starting to mean Manchester in precisely the same way as the UK means England or England / UK means London. In trying to think beyond London the same mistakes are being made.

However, I find these threads a bit maddening. You don’t decide what is the North depending on your own location; arguing that Manchester is a Midlands city because you live in Darlington is absurd. Birmingham is not in the North - because the Midlands is a distinct place too. And clearly it doesn’t refer to Scotland, even if that isn’t right and we should add ‘of England’ after.

Stuart Maconie has it.

@HarrietsChariot

The north is the line between the Severn Estuary and The Wash. Leicester, Lincoln, Birmingham and Cardiff are all north. Northampton, Peterborough and Norwich are all south.

??? Cardiff is south of the M4! Which is categorically in the south.

And Birmingham and Leicester are Midlands. I wouldn't call Lincoln North either.

Sheffield is the north but dont worry, we (and the rest of South Yorkshire for that matter) see little in the way of investment. There's no great money feast you are missing out on.

@Glassofshloer

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

It does sound rude but it’s obviously coming from a place of a chip on your shoulder about the SW so it’s more pathetic than offensive.

Referring to “the North” never being happy or “the North” thinking this way is precisely the point. The idea that an entire swathe of the country, home to a large number of very different large cities and their environs, as well as significant rural areas, and the millions and millions of people who live there, is one homogenous mass is precisely the issue that’s being laid out on this thread.

@Glassofshloer

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

Oh dear god

'The North' isn't one place, with a Borg-like collective of inhabitants who all think and feel exactly the same way about everything.

@Glassofshloer

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

Softie southerners always say that (especially about Liverpool) and it's rubbish.

The country is orientated towards the south and London in particular. Pointing that out does not imply victimhood (and anyway I live in the south).

@dreamingbohemian

I find this question of where the North begins fascinating (I'm not originally from the UK) OP where would you say it begins? Is Leeds the North?

YANBU to be annoyed, it's really shocking how the government so completely ignore a whole part of the country

For me, the North begins at an imaginary line between the Mersey and the Humber.

Below that line, and above an imaginary line between the Severn and the Wash, is the Midlands.

And I agree that because of our London-centric government and media, the North gets disregarded, but I also recognise that a far greater proportion of the population lives south of the Midlands.

@Glassofshloer

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

How about we test this by distributing government investment more evenly for 30 years or so and see? Oh and come up with a system of government where more people see their votes reflected? Because what you see as a victim mentality is what I see as reasonable complaints about the distribution of wealth and power. Or are you one of those folk in the home counties who hyperventilates at the thought that you may no longer be able to eat all the pie?

'Up north' as defined by the one hit wonders of KLF and Justified Ancients of Mu Mu.....

Bolton,
Barnsley,
Nelson,
Colne,
Burnley
Bradford,
Buxton,
Crewe,
Warrington,
Widnes,
Wigan,
Leeds,
Northwich,
Nantwich,
Knutsford,
Hull,
Sale,
Salford,
Southport,
Leigh,
Derby,
Kearsley
Keighley
Maghull,
Harrogate,
Huddersfield,
Oldham, Lancs,
Grimsby,
Glossop,
Hebden Bridge,

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North.

Brighouse,
Bootle,
Featherstone,
Speke,
Runcorn,
Rotherham,
Rochdale,
Barrow,
Morecambe,
Macclesfield,
Lytham St. Annes
Clitheroe,
Cleethorpes,
The M62,

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North.

Pendlebury,
Prestwich,
Preston,
York,
Skipton,
Scunthorpe,
Scarborough-on-Sea,
Chester,
Chorley,
Cheedle Hulme,
Ormskirk,
Accrington Stanley,
and Leigh,
Ossett,
Otley,
Ikley Moor,
Sheffield,
Manchester,
Castleford,
Skem,
Doncaster,
Dewsbury,
Hali-fax,
Bingley,
Bramall,
Are all in the North.

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North

In fairness though I once saw a documentary, can't remember where it was set, maybe Kent or Essex or somewhere, and was really shocked to see the poverty there. It was people living in basically what looked like caravan parks on the coast, but these were their actual houses. Inside them, it was dismal. Lots of stories of addiction. Normally when we think 'Kent' we think posh manors. Apparently Somerset is really bad too, So maybe just as southerners can be ignorant about the north (you want to see some of the manors in Cheshire...), northerners can be very ignorant about the south too.

I was quite shocked when I went to Brighton too. It basically felt like London in the centre, but you realise that there is no real social mixing in the bars and clubs there. Then when you go out to places like Whitehawk, you realise it's very segregated, and even in places like Sussex, there is poverty everywhere.

@ColinTheKoala well you call us softies but we’re not the ones on here complaining 😕 I live in the south west & we are more deprived than you are

@Porcupineintherough no I live in Devon.

YANBU. Manchester is 200 miles north of London. But there are parts of England that are 200 miles north of Manchester!