To think the Government don't understand where "the north" actually is?

[AdamRyan]

Government have scrapped the Leeds extension of HS2, so it now goes to Manchester. There will be faster trains to Sheffield as well. This apparently is to enable levelling up of "The North"
www.bbc.co.uk/news

AIBU to think Manchester and Sheffield are barely The North in an English context, let alone when you add in Scotland? What exactly does this do for the most deprived communities in the North East and the Lakes?

I'm so annoyed, the North of the UK just constantly gets left behind :(

@TrashyPanda

The North = Inverness, Aberdeen etc. The North of England is totally different.

The North refers to the North of England. Aberdeen etc would be referred to as Scotland.

England = North, Midlands, South
Scotland = Highlands, Lowlands, Islands

@AdamRyan

I mean, Manchester is in the North. But only barely. Same with Sheffield. Fucks me right off that the Government constantly say they are investing in the Northern Powerhouse by which they mean Manchester. There needs to be better transport links across the North and into Scotland, not focussed on links into London. The Government need to start focusing on Northern England as a region, and if they conservatives want to appeal to unionists and Scottish voters they need to benefit links between Scotland and England too

I agree with you, and I get infuriated by fellow-southerners who can't see that investment in the north of England and Scotland will benefit the south, too.

If there were better transport links for the North and Scotland it would make relocation of businesses and jobs more attractive and reduce pressure on homes, transport, schools, NHS etc in the south.

It would improve things for the whole country imo.

They do mean England but the north of England is quite big and when they talk about investment in the north they mean the very southern-most point of the north. Used to confuse me as a kid as Manchester is around 3 hrs drive south of where I grew up. It’s all nonsense and one of the reasons there feels like there is such a divide.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENeCYwms-Cc

Major blow to Yorkshire. Leeds is a much bigger, more metropolitan city than Sheffield with lots more business so I’m not quite sure I understand the governments logic here at all. Same goes for everything they do though so unsurprising.

The North has loads going for it - much cheaper houses, gorgeous countryside, a good network of relatively close large cities meaning it’s easier to get a job & stay close to family at the same time.
Cheap houses cos the job opportunities are not so good/wages are depressed
If you don't drive its extremely difficult to get between cities, if you do drive it takes ages. They might look close but aren't that easy to get to (have you actually tried traversing Leeds and the ring road?)

I don't live in the North but grew up there, I grew up near Leeds and my grandparents lived in Northumberland near the Scottish border. It was a 2.5 hour drive to see them (100 miles)
My other grandparents lived on the West Coast of the lakes, also a 2.5 hour drive. Nothing has changed to make those journeys easier.

Don't even get me started on the East Coast.

People in those areas can't access higher paying jobs cos transport is shit. So they leave.

Also the same definitely applies to the SW (where I'm based now). I can get to London in 90 minutes. Takes 3.5 hours to Leeds on the train. And the costs are punitive.

@AdamRyan

The North has loads going for it - much cheaper houses, gorgeous countryside, a good network of relatively close large cities meaning it’s easier to get a job & stay close to family at the same time. Cheap houses cos the job opportunities are not so good/wages are depressed If you don't drive its extremely difficult to get between cities, if you do drive it takes ages. They might look close but aren't that easy to get to (have you actually tried traversing Leeds and the ring road?)

I don't live in the North but grew up there, I grew up near Leeds and my grandparents lived in Northumberland near the Scottish border. It was a 2.5 hour drive to see them (100 miles)
My other grandparents lived on the West Coast of the lakes, also a 2.5 hour drive. Nothing has changed to make those journeys easier.

Don't even get me started on the East Coast.

People in those areas can't access higher paying jobs cos transport is shit. So they leave.

Also the same definitely applies to the SW (where I'm based now). I can get to London in 90 minutes. Takes 3.5 hours to Leeds on the train. And the costs are punitive.

Yeah but that means at least houses are more affordable. Here in SW we have biggest gap between wages & house prices. Wages being depressed means less if houses are cheap.

In terms of government spending, "The North" is Manchester and surrounding areas and "The South" is London and surrounding areas. Anyone living in any areas other than this gets some waffle about leveling up, powerhouses, and being proud but no actual investment.

Twas ever thus and ever it shall be.

Manchester and Sheffield are squarely, unequivocally in the north of England. However, they are only one part of it, and the problem is that this government's idea of assisting the region is just to throw a bit of money at a fairly small geographic percentage of it.

@HarrietsChariot

The north is the line between the Severn Estuary and The Wash. Leicester, Lincoln, Birmingham and Cardiff are all north. Northampton, Peterborough and Norwich are all south.

Birmingham is the Midlands (we always get overlooked!).

"Northern England" for me is Manchester, York and Newcastle. If it's "Northern UK", the Highlands.

@BarstewardofNorthstead

'Up north' as defined by the one hit wonders of KLF and Justified Ancients of Mu Mu.....

Bolton,
Barnsley,
Nelson,
Colne,
Burnley
Bradford,
Buxton,
Crewe,
Warrington,
Widnes,
Wigan,
Leeds,
Northwich,
Nantwich,
Knutsford,
Hull,
Sale,
Salford,
Southport,
Leigh,
Derby,
Kearsley
Keighley
Maghull,
Harrogate,
Huddersfield,
Oldham, Lancs,
Grimsby,
Glossop,
Hebden Bridge,

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North.

Brighouse,
Bootle,
Featherstone,
Speke,
Runcorn,
Rotherham,
Rochdale,
Barrow,
Morecambe,
Macclesfield,
Lytham St. Annes
Clitheroe,
Cleethorpes,
The M62,

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North.

Pendlebury,
Prestwich,
Preston,
York,
Skipton,
Scunthorpe,
Scarborough-on-Sea,
Chester,
Chorley,
Cheedle Hulme,
Ormskirk,
Accrington Stanley,
and Leigh,
Ossett,
Otley,
Ikley Moor,
Sheffield,
Manchester,
Castleford,
Skem,
Doncaster,
Dewsbury,
Hali-fax,
Bingley,
Bramall,
Are all in the North.

It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North,
It's Grim Up North

👍

Well now...what about the south west? No it's not the same as the South (employment OK, housing OK, social deprivation generally OK) We're beginning to think the South west begins and ends at Bristol. We have 1 main railway line into the whole of Devon and Cornwall which may or may not survive another big storm. We have 1 main motorway for all traffic to Devon and Cornwall (never mind an HS3-4-5) to cut five minutes off the time to Penzance. We have two main hospital hubs in Devon - with several regional hospitals which are miles apart and getting to them on the congested roads (especially in high season) is a nightmare. In addition we have some of the poorest areas with high levels of deprivation in the country. The Barrett formula for working out school finances results in less per capita spending on our children than up t'north. Seaside economies have suffered terribly over the last few years with the trend to shop closures being felt long ago.
Yes we have lovely scenery but man cannot live on fresh air alone.

I’m afraid I don’t know where the North/South divide is, I imagine it’s somewhere either side of Birmingham (being Midlands) I’d class Manchester as North though! I think Manchester upwards is what I’d say. Looks like it is confusing:

Yeah, they seem to think the North = Manchester/Liverpool.
Sure these cities are part of it, but there's quite a lot of room still between there and Scotland!

Not sure where these Londoners get their geography knowledge from, but I suspect it's mostly 60s pop culture, like where did this famous boys band come from, or where did that soap opera get filmed...

@JollyJoon

I'm from Sheffield and I get what you mean, to me Sheffield is only really where the north begins, its not the "deep north". Feel.sorry for Newcastle and co, they always seem to be forgotten.

Also from Sheffield. Definitely this is the north.

Went up to the very north of Scotland this summer. That is a long, long way from Sheffield, let alone London!

@Glassofshloer

I don’t think the North will ever be happy, no matter how much is invested in it. It has a bit of a victim mentality. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am prepared to back that up.

Sometimes a "victim mentality" comes form being an actual victim.

Once this country spends as much elsewhere per person on transport and other public services as it does in London we can talk - until then London is getting the lion's share as usual.

My perception 😂 below the black line is the South, above the blue line is The North and in between the Midlands. Wasn’t sure what to do about Wales tried to get a North/South split but I failed miserably.

No offence meant by the way, purely me having a go at it. Just my opinion.

Intresting read but really from this lot to be expected. I only hope it makes the newly blue norghen MPs considered they may need a new job soon. As a Scot living in Lancashire the North to me is Manchester/ Liverpool / Leeds to the border and then it's Scotland. To my son who refused to go to a "southern uni" it ment anything south of Manchester. He is in Liverpool

@JollyJoon

In fairness though I once saw a documentary, can't remember where it was set, maybe Kent or Essex or somewhere, and was really shocked to see the poverty there. It was people living in basically what looked like caravan parks on the coast, but these were their actual houses. Inside them, it was dismal. Lots of stories of addiction. Normally when we think 'Kent' we think posh manors. Apparently Somerset is really bad too, So maybe just as southerners can be ignorant about the north (you want to see some of the manors in Cheshire...), northerners can be very ignorant about the south too.

I was quite shocked when I went to Brighton too. It basically felt like London in the centre, but you realise that there is no real social mixing in the bars and clubs there. Then when you go out to places like Whitehawk, you realise it's very segregated, and even in places like Sussex, there is poverty everywhere.

That'll be Jaywick/Clacton. Grim place. I had a friend who used to live in one of the prefab houses and I spent a few nights with her. The first night, the house next door was set on fire.

@loopylindi

Well now...what about the south west? No it's not the same as the South (employment OK, housing OK, social deprivation generally OK) We're beginning to think the South west begins and ends at Bristol. We have 1 main railway line into the whole of Devon and Cornwall which may or may not survive another big storm. We have 1 main motorway for all traffic to Devon and Cornwall (never mind an HS3-4-5) to cut five minutes off the time to Penzance. We have two main hospital hubs in Devon - with several regional hospitals which are miles apart and getting to them on the congested roads (especially in high season) is a nightmare. In addition we have some of the poorest areas with high levels of deprivation in the country. The Barrett formula for working out school finances results in less per capita spending on our children than up t'north. Seaside economies have suffered terribly over the last few years with the trend to shop closures being felt long ago. Yes we have lovely scenery but man cannot live on fresh air alone.

We know it’s true but we may as well whisper it into the void. The North is the most hard done by place ever, and us in the South just don’t understand 🤔

Manchester is the North of England

I'm from very close to Sheffield and I'm very much a Northerner.

Well now...what about the south west? No it's not the same as the South (employment OK, housing OK, social deprivation generally OK) We're beginning to think the South west begins and ends at Bristol.

I’d say (as a South Westerner) South West is Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Gloucester, Dorset and Wiltshire.

It’s just found the HS2 strategy document:

Within scope:
Get clever people from The North in and out of London as quickly as possible

Out of scope:
Everyone else can go to hell

Gloucestershire I meant to say*