to be alarmed by vaccine passports

[Loustew12]

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

@SencosRshit

But the suggestion that there is even anything to compare between the Holocaust and vaccine passports is so staggeringly offensive that I feel compelled to take a side on that one. And it’s not ‘history’. Downplaying the Holocaust is a core element of modern antisemitism.

This is interesting @JassyRadlett

My gut feeling tells me that the vaccine passport/segregation is dangerous because it could be the beginnings of something much more serious.

I don't think it's antisemitic to spot the potential germination of something very worrying.

There are too many people that are ignorant of our history and what happened during the holocaust.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study

It is better that people are vigilant rather than ignorant - don't you think? One of the importances of discussing and sharing our history is to prevent similar tragedies from happening again.

I agree with thie 100% @SencosRshit - Thank you for articulating my thoughts so perfectly!

I think if you bang the 'we're downplaying the holocaust' drum too hard - it silences people. It freezes people. Is that what you want? For us to be too scared to discuss?

I would absolutely like people to stop using the Holocaust to try to justify their views on this issue. Or any issue that is not, in fact, the Holocaust.

No one is forcing you to rely on the Holocaust to be able to discuss this issue. Discuss away. It’s a live issue, it should be discussed.

But comparing any choice-based discrimination to racial discrimination is problematic, on first principles. There is agency in the former that is absolutely lacking in the latter. Those choices might be incredibly uncomfortable and make life significantly worse, but conflating them with racial discrimination wipes away the total lack of agency for people to opt out from that discrimination.

But then you do get to questions of scale, and modern impact. On the Holocaust question, Holocaust denial and diminishment is an active component of modern antisemitism.

Who’s stopping you discussing this without talking about yellow stars and ghettoes? Are people saying ‘stop bitching, it’s not the Holocaust?’ Point me in their direction and I’ll tell them they’re being twats and the two aren’t even remotely comparable.

But in the meantime - why can’t this be discussed without bringing the Holocaust into it? If you’re concerned about people like me ‘freezing’ discussion by pointing out how it absolutely downplays the Nazi atrocities from their conception, there’s a real simple solution. Just don’t bloody do it. Don’t co-opt that tragedy for your argument, and the risk of anti-racists criticising the argument totally disappears.

And don’t do it with racial segregation in the South either. Though people don’t seem quite so quick to reach for that one. I can’t think why.

I agree. I am pro-vaccine, anti-pass, and anti-Holocaust comparaisons. It doesn't do the side any favours.

I would absolutely like people to stop using the Holocaust to try to justify their views on this issue. Or any issue that is not, in fact, the Holocaust.

Ok, let's stop about Holocaust. Let's talk about communism - been tried in quite a few places. There is no "greater good" in totalitarianism, it only leads to mass atrocities.

Ok, let's stop about Holocaust. Let's talk about communism - been tried in quite a few places. There is no "greater good" in totalitarianism, it only leads to mass atrocities.

So now our right-wing Tory government is secretly communist? For fuck’s sake.

How about not using ridiculous unhistorical examples at all, and try and let your argument stand on its own merits?

We could try talking about scientific fact?
As @JassyRadlett has tried to do?

@PAFMO

We could try talking about scientific fact? As *@JassyRadlett* has tried to do?

That feels like a distant dream now.

So now our right-wing Tory government is secretly communist? For fuck’s sake.

left vs. right is an outdated discourse. Conservatism or liberalism also drifted too far from original meaning.
Only ideals that "speak" universally are power and money. Do you think tories are going to stand up to their corporate/globalist handlers?

We haven’t introduced covid passports yet, in England at least

Whereas many other countries have

So we are slightly removed from what others are doing

left vs. right is an outdated discourse. Conservatism or liberalism also drifted too far from original meaning.
Only ideals that "speak" universally are power and money. Do you think tories are going to stand up to their corporate/globalist handlers?

Who are these ‘globalist handlers?’ (I wonder) How are they relevant to your communism theory?

@JassyRadlett
I do heave a sigh of relief when I see your name (here and in other more spaggy places )
Power to your elbow.

Aw, thanks @PAFMO! It is sometimes so discouraging and hard to stick to the boundaries I’ve set myself of ‘just the facts, ma’am’.

(And obviously I give myself exemptions, like on this thread. The idea that by asking people not to make inaccurate, offensive and potentially damaging comparisons to the Holocaust you are somehow silencing debate is so strange.)

My gut feeling tells me that the vaccine passport/segregation is dangerous because it could be the beginnings of something much more serious.

More than the segregation between people who do and don't have driving licenses? Or actual passports? Or citizenship from birth versus acquired citizenship versus long-term residency versus being a 'migrant'? Or who have money to afford travel and attendance at events and other luxuries and indeed necessities, versus those who don't? - perhaps the biggest segregation at the moment. Why is it worse for people to be unable to access certain things if they don't get vaccinated, than to be unable to access these things if they don't have the money? It is practically very difficult for people with large families to do a wide variety of things that are easier for people who fit the current convention of small families- why is it better to 'segregate' large families than to 'segregate' those who will not get the vaccination?

If we ARE going to bring up the Nazis, let us note that a lot of their atrocities began with rating the fit and healthy above those with health problems and disabilities that might need accommodation ('useless eaters'). Do I think that prioritizing the freedom of the non-vulnerable to do as they please over protecting the vulnerable will lead us down the same path as Nazi Germany? No! But it's just as (un)reasonable to suggest this, as to suggest that having rules about vaccines will lead us down the same path as Nazi Germany.

There is no "greater good" in totalitarianism, it only leads to mass atrocities.

Health and safety rules to protect the potentially vulnerable are not totalitarianism, FFS! Do you also think it's totalitarian to ban speeding and drunk driving?

Do I think that prioritizing the freedom of the non-vulnerable to do as they please over protecting the vulnerable will lead us down the same path as Nazi Germany? No!

The treatment of disabled and elderly has been appaling in this country for quite a while now. Why do you think it won't get worse.

Let's talk about witch hunts instead of Nazis:

*I find it incredibly depressing to see history repeating itself like this. It feels like no moral progress has been made since witches were burnt at the stake.

You divide society into the "clean" and the "unclean". You blame the "unclean" for whatever has gone wrong and whip up fear over the danger they pose. You restrict their freedom or outright persecute them. And sometimes you say - well if they just convert from their belief system they wouldn't be subject to this treatment so it's their choice.

The rationale seems stronger to people this time because it's "science" based and not religion based but I think it's exactly the same mentality behind it. People get scared and acquiesce in their government scapegoating a particular group and because they are not personally affected by the measures that group is subjected to and they do not agree with their beliefs they can shrug and go on with their lives.*

Is this a better comparison?

The treatment of disabled and elderly has been appaling in this country for quite a while now. Why do you think it won't get worse.

Indeed. And that's one of the main reasons I don't vote Tory!!!!

But I think that the attitude 'My freedom to travel and attend events without being vaccinated (and other precautions) should trump elderly and disabled people's freedom, at best to travel and attend events because of an unacceptable risk of exposure, at worst to live at all or to avoid worse disability and chronic illness!' is a very strong endorsement of, and increase in, our society's existing ageism and ableism.

@ddl1

The treatment of disabled and elderly has been appaling in this country for quite a while now. Why do you think it won't get worse.

Indeed. And that's one of the main reasons I don't vote Tory!!!!

But I think that the attitude 'My freedom to travel and attend events without being vaccinated (and other precautions) should trump elderly and disabled people's freedom, at best to travel and attend events because of an unacceptable risk of exposure, at worst to live at all or to avoid worse disability and chronic illness!' is a very strong endorsement of, and increase in, our society's existing ageism and ableism.

I’m pro vaccination and think it’s the way out of this but this makes me uncomfortable

Yes the right to attend events should trump it by remaining an individual decision