to be alarmed by vaccine passports

[Loustew12]

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

The comparison was to one group of people being denied access to places other groups of people can access based upon discrimination. I’m not explaining it again because you have already told me you see me as something I’m not so I have no chance of convincing you otherwise. The judgment has been made and that is the end of that! No loss to me, I get to continue with my non judgemental life and look out for people who are being unfairly discriminated against, including 12 years olds!

@Lostinacloud

What rubbish! I didn’t intend to get into an argument about history so I’m not going to entertain you any further but my view on vaccine passports as discriminatory and socially divisive remain in place. If that is contrary to your opinion then guess what…people disagree and I am happy to agree to disagree with you.

As I’ve said - repeatedly - I am not offering an opinion or taking a side on vaccine passports. I’ve only asked questions about the evidence people are using, and pointing out any problems with it.

I’ve long made a point on the Covid threads of trying to stick to pointing out and correcting misinformation, rather than arguing for particular policies or approaches.

But the suggestion that there is even anything to compare between the Holocaust and vaccine passports is so staggeringly offensive that I feel compelled to take a side on that one. And it’s not ‘history’. Downplaying the Holocaust is a core element of modern antisemitism.

Your response is quite aggressive @Thatsthewaytis. Instead of attacking other posters you could maybe try to respond to their points calmly and with a bit more respect? @Lostinacloud was not trying to equate vaccine passports with the Holocaust. The two things are in no way equivalent and I think that anyone rational understands this. The point made was that vaccine passports are segregating society, which is a point that is quite hard to disagree with in my opinion.

@Lockheart

As far as I can see, Gibraltar had 55 cases yesterday. They've had a total of 6,683 since the whole thing started.

Is that how we're defining "through the roof" now?

Looking at it as a percentage of the population. The number of medical staff, hospital beds, ITU facilities reflect the number in the population, therefore a spike in cases which would seem a small number to the UK or USA could swamp the facilities available in a tiny country such as Gibraltar.

Vaccines are not stopping transmission. Yes, the headline is that they do lower transmission but the small print is ‘not by much’.

This is incorrect. In preventing the majority of infections, vaccines break the majority of transmission chains.

You may be thinking of secondary transmission - the likelihood a vaccinated infected person will pass it on, compared to an unvaccinated infected person. The evidence base on that is much more mixed, ranging from ‘little to no effect’ to ‘up to 63% reduction.’

[quote JollyJoon]@ConcernedAuntie

But that's because theres practically no testing in France whereas everyone I know in the UK seems to have boxes of lateral flow tests at the ready. Go and look up testing rates and get back to me.[/quote]
Sorry, have just come back to this. So, in all this time that we keep getting told that the UK has the worst infection rates in Europe it's just the fact that other countries don't test as much that makes us look so bad?

I thought I also read somewhere that our testing system was crap and other European countries test more efficiently than us and that is why their numbers were more controlled.

Have I misunderstood? Are we really better at testing?

More than willing to be educated.

@nojudgementhere

Your response is quite aggressive *@Thatsthewaytis. Instead of attacking other posters you could maybe try to respond to their points calmly and with a bit more respect? @Lostinacloud* was not trying to equate vaccine passports with the Holocaust. The two things are in no way equivalent and I think that anyone rational understands this. The point made was that vaccine passports are segregating society, which is a point that is quite hard to disagree with in my opinion.

I will give them a small amount of benefit of the doubt that they are acting in ignorance rather than with malign intent, given that they seem to believe that Jews in Nazi Europe had a choice about whether they were considered Jewish or not.

Have I misunderstood? Are we really better at testing?

We are much, much better at testing and have been for a long while now.

For a while, we’ve done between 10 and 15 tests per thousand per day. The last time we dropped below 10 was in the early spring.

France is currently between 3 and 5. There was a period in August when they broke through 19 but it was short lived, it’s stayed below 5 for the last month.

France is a lot better than eg Germany, which hasn’t gone above 2 since early May.

A great source for this is Our World In Data - click on the interactive maps to compare rates in different countries. If you go to ‘see rates over time’ you can choose countries to compare.

@Loustew12

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

You're not the only person OP.

I'm getting off this vaccine train now. Done my double jabbed bit. It didn't sit comfortably then, if I'm honest. But I did it for the 'greater good' whatever that might mean.

This has gone too far now. It is alarming - yes. I feel like we're going back in time to a part of history we really should have learned never to repeat.

@nojudgementhere

Your response is quite aggressive *@Thatsthewaytis. Instead of attacking other posters you could maybe try to respond to their points calmly and with a bit more respect? @Lostinacloud* was not trying to equate vaccine passports with the Holocaust. The two things are in no way equivalent and I think that anyone rational understands this. The point made was that vaccine passports are segregating society, which is a point that is quite hard to disagree with in my opinion.

I’m sorry that I feel so strongly about people equating not getting a vaccine and subsequent consequences to the Holocaust.

If you care to re read her post it quite clearly states that she understands the comparison between not getting vaccinated and the Holocaust. Indeed she goes so far as to say that being Jewish is a choice as if Jewish people could easily have chosen otherwise and avoided the atrocities they were subjected to. Directly from her post Yes it’s ultimately a choice not to be vaccinated but then it’s also a choice as to what religion you follow

Sorry, have just come back to this. So, in all this time that we keep getting told that the UK has the worst infection rates in Europe it's just the fact that other countries don't test as much that makes us look so bad?

Our rates are undoubtedly high. But when you look at Germany’s positivity rate - it’s at 16%. The UK’s is 4.3% and has been fairly steady there for a while. We’ve bumped just above 5% for a bit in October.

The WHO says a positive rate under 5% is a sign an epidemic is under control. Limited testing means a lot of cases are missed; a high positivity rate means we are probably seeing a much smaller fraction of the true level of infections.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Jews in Nazi Europe did have a choice. What happened to them was abhorrent and disgusting and I'd be very surprised if anyone has tried to argue that it wasn't. It's an unhelpful and inaccurate comparison that should not be brought up as it offends people and also distracts from the debate we are trying to have.

At the end of day people don't like to think of themselves as the type of people who would support discrimination and division. Just because someone has 'chosen' not to have a vaccine it does not make it ok to treat them as a second class citizen and stop them from living their lives. Whether this is time limited or not is irrelevant in my opinion, it is inhumane and wrong.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Jews in Nazi Europe did have a choice.

To quote:
‘Yes it’s ultimately a choice not to be vaccinated but then it’s also a choice as to what religion you follow.’

@nojudgementhere

I don't think anyone has suggested that Jews in Nazi Europe did have a choice. What happened to them was abhorrent and disgusting and I'd be very surprised if anyone has tried to argue that it wasn't. It's an unhelpful and inaccurate comparison that should not be brought up as it offends people and also distracts from the debate we are trying to have.

At the end of day people don't like to think of themselves as the type of people who would support discrimination and division. Just because someone has 'chosen' not to have a vaccine it does not make it ok to treat them as a second class citizen and stop them from living their lives. Whether this is time limited or not is irrelevant in my opinion, it is inhumane and wrong.

@nojudgementhere it’s right there in black and white in @Lostinacloud post. It’s disingenuous to ignore it. This kind of thing needs to be called out.

I also have not yet gotten an answer as to why an unvaccinated persons right to do what they want when they want and against public health advice, supersedes the rights of a vulnerable person or a person who cannot for medical reasons be vaccinated and thus relies on herd immunity, to not catch covid from them and potentially die. I fully support vaccine certs. I don’t see them as divisive. You have the right to refuse the vaccine. You don’t have the right to go around spreading covid in high risk environments to others as a result. As another person said you don’t have to scan your luggage and self at an airport but you also don’t get to go on a plane. Choices have consequences. You don’t get vaccinated you don’t get to go out for a nice dinner.

Yes the UK tests much more than France. The UK also has a highly sensitive tracing app. Self testing and isolating are not "a thing" in France. The Tous Anti Covid app doesnt work at all like the NHS app. I had mine activated for 3 months and didnt get a single "cas contact" notification. The French app relies on people inputting data themselves and using bluetooth. In the UK everywhere you go you get tracked.

Its easy for people visiting from France to act "appalled" at non mask wearing in the UK, but in france because their tracing system and testing is shit/low uptake, you dont really have much power over keeping yourself safe.

It comes down to:
Would you rather have freedom but the knowledge (through high testing and good tracing) to shield yourself where necessary? UK
Or limited freedom (compulsory masks, compulsory pass) but lower knowledge? France

This aligns pretty well with the two different political cultures in the countries though. France has quite a paternalistic government, the UK is more hands off.

@JollyJoon

Yes the UK tests much more than France. The UK also has a highly sensitive tracing app. Self testing and isolating are not "a thing" in France. The Tous Anti Covid app doesnt work at all like the NHS app. I had mine activated for 3 months and didnt get a single "cas contact" notification. The French app relies on people inputting data themselves and using bluetooth. In the UK everywhere you go you get tracked.

Its easy for people visiting from France to act "appalled" at non mask wearing in the UK, but in france because their tracing system and testing is shit/low uptake, you dont really have much power over keeping yourself safe.

It comes down to:
Would you rather have freedom but the knowledge (through high testing and good tracing) to shield yourself where necessary? UK
Or limited freedom (compulsory masks, compulsory pass) but lower knowledge? France

This aligns pretty well with the two different political cultures in the countries though. France has quite a paternalistic government, the UK is more hands off.

Interesting question

I prefer U.K. approach, I live here though so obviously I’m influenced by the culture

But the suggestion that there is even anything to compare between the Holocaust and vaccine passports is so staggeringly offensive that I feel compelled to take a side on that one. And it’s not ‘history’. Downplaying the Holocaust is a core element of modern antisemitism.

This is interesting @JassyRadlett

My gut feeling tells me that the vaccine passport/segregation is dangerous because it could be the beginnings of something much more serious.

I don't think it's antisemitic to spot the potential germination of something very worrying.

There are too many people that are ignorant of our history and what happened during the holocaust.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study

It is better that people are vigilant rather than ignorant - don't you think? One of the importances of discussing and sharing our history is to prevent similar tragedies from happening again.

My gut feeling tells me that the vaccine passport/segregation is dangerous because it could be the beginnings of something much more serious.

This is nonsense, and just another way of using the facile ‘slippery slope’ argument to say that a public health measure will lead to a similar horror to the Holocaust.

My gut feeling tells me that the vaccine passport/segregation is dangerous because it could be the beginnings of something much more serious.

I don't think it's antisemitic to spot the potential germination of something very worrying.

No, but downplaying the Holocaust absolutely is. It is encouraging ignorance of the true scale of what was done by conflating it with the concept of exclusion from some public spaces based on vaccine choice.

We’ve seen it on this thread already. The idea that the Holocaust was an opt-in choice based on active religious affiliation. The

The question I would always encourage people to ask themselves is why, when they’re talking about this, it’s the Holocaust they reach for, rather than racial segregation in the US South?

I wouldn’t use either. If you’re worried about segregation or discrimination based on this choice, then great. Argue it on its merits.

Don’t co-opt another tragedy based on an entirely different characteristic to make your argument. Neither US racial segregation or the Holocaust are appropriate comparators. That trauma and grief are not your rhetorical device.

It may seem nonsense to you. That is opinion. Not fact. But I'm sure you already know that, Dismantled.

@SencosRshit

It may seem nonsense to you. That is opinion. Not fact. But I'm sure you already know that, Dismantled.

Read JessyRadlett’s reply. Stop using the holocaust to reinforce your paranoia.

Sorry JassyR - but I also feel very strongly about this.

I think if you bang the 'we're downplaying the holocaust' drum too hard - it silences people. It freezes people. Is that what you want? For us to be too scared to discuss?

It is only by talking about these things that we can spot patterns and concerns. I think we need to be alert now. And I think trying to shut down this conversation is also very dangerous.

@SencosRshit

Sorry JassyR - but I also feel very strongly about this.

I think if you bang the 'we're downplaying the holocaust' drum too hard - it silences people. It freezes people. Is that what you want? For us to be too scared to discuss?

It is only by talking about these things that we can spot patterns and concerns. I think we need to be alert now. And I think trying to shut down this conversation is also very dangerous.

If you don’t like vaccine passports, that’s fine. Make your point. If you use the example of the Holocaust to back it up for reasons of your own hyperbole and paranoia, that’s far from fine. It’s offensive to victims of the Nazis.