to be alarmed by vaccine passports

[Loustew12]

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

@JessyRadlett - Do you have any evidence that vaccine passports do make a significant difference to infection rates then?

Surely if we are going to support a hugely discriminatory policy like this, that will have a major impact on people's lives, happiness and freedom, then we should have concrete evidence of how many lives it will save.

*PAFMO

The irony of someone likening showing a QR code so that they don't risk, y'know, infecting somebody else with something that might kill them to the Holocaust and then having the balls to say it's others doing the name-calling....

I agree. Utterly bizarre.*

You have both spectacularly missed the point here - as I would imagine you realise. People are not complaining about showing a QR code. They are complaining about a whole section of society being shut out of normal life, ridiculed and mistreated for refusing to take a vaccine that they don't feel ready to, and for insisting that they have autonomy over their own bodies. You can downplay it all you like but I would find it hard to think of myself as a decent person if I supported this.

Do you have any evidence that vaccine passports do make a significant difference to infection rates then?

No, but then I’ve made no claims about them one way or another.

I simply asked for the evidence supporting an apparent statement of fact. The onus tends to be on the person making the statement to provide evidence to support it.

The one thing I will express a very clear opinion about on this thread is that equating vaccine passports as they are currently used in any country with the Holocaust, or excusing or downplaying the same, is disgusting.

Jews have repeatedly explained why it’s so offensive and asked for it to stop. Downplaying the racial annihilation of the Holocaust helps to feed anti-semitism.

Thank you for confirming that @JassyRadlett. I haven't seen any real evidence that introducing vaccine passports will save lives either. What I do know is that they are causing a real division in society and making us turn on one another rather than the government who have over the last ten years run our hospitals into the ground.

@nojudgementhere to be fair the ridicule is justified! The absolute nonsense being trotted out on mumsnet alone about the vaccine. All based on pure speculation or fake news. What do you expect people to do?

Oh yes you are so right. We don’t know the effects of the vaccine. It’s only been given to 7 billion people. Of course you are right to be cautious

Oh yes it’s definitely possible it will have no effect on your now and 20 years down the line it will have a huge effect.

Oh yes of course the government are out to get you. Totally understandable not to get the vaccine.

Ah yes your concern there will be a 5 G chip in your brain so bill gates can monitor you

Ah yes I totally get you feel like you are being persecuted similar to Jewish people in the holocaust

Oh the vaccine is going to cause infertility! You’re definitely right about that despite zero plausible mechanism.

I’ve never heard a valid argument against the vaccine. It’s all sheer nonsense.

Thank you for confirming that @JassyRadlett. I haven't seen any real evidence that introducing vaccine passports will save lives either.

To be fair, I haven’t looked for it, and just as for any other NPIs it’s going to be very hard to be unequivocal and precise.

You could say much the same about lockdowns, capacity restrictions, school closures, mask wearing, or hand washing. There are too many uncontrollable factors to get a clear evidence base on the precise impact of on any of these measures.

The one thing we do have evidence on is the level to which vaccination will change how many of a particular group are likely to be infected at a particular time. A group that is fully vaccinated will, on average, have a significantly lower number of infected people, and the rest of the group will be better protected against catching it from them.

I have never equated vaccine passports with the Holocaust as I would not want to hurt or offend anyone and I in no way feel the two things are on the same level of atrocity. I doubt whether people who do compare the two are deliberately trying to cause harm or controversy though. I think they are genuinely terrified by the fact that whole sections of populations are all of a sudden being treated as 'unclean' or 'too dangerous to be part of society' and feel unable to adequaely express this. Maybe we should be looking at addressing these points rather than shutting them down?

On the subject of fatness re. covid...

The doubling time for the unfettered spread of Covid is a few days, maybe 3? (Can't be arsed to google.) The doubling time for clinical obesity is, I guess, something like 50 years.

These times mean that with no preventative action, it would take at most a few weeks for NHS to be overwhelmed by Covid. It would take a few centuries for fat to cause the same problem, and you'd have to assume that in the time the NHS wouldn't expand to cope, nor anyone invent a method of preventing it.

@RandomLondoner

On the subject of fatness re. covid...

The doubling time for the unfettered spread of Covid is a few days, maybe 3? (Can't be arsed to google.) The doubling time for clinical obesity is, I guess, something like 50 years.

These times mean that with no preventative action, it would take at most a few weeks for NHS to be overwhelmed by Covid. It would take a few centuries for fat to cause the same problem, and you'd have to assume that in the time the NHS wouldn't expand to cope, nor anyone invent a method of preventing it.

This doesn’t quite follow to me

Aren’t you better off looking at how to reduce obesity not just in the duration of this pandemic but future ones

On the topic of whether Covid passes work you could ask

Do they increase uptake?

Which groups and how much does higher vaccine take up there help?

Do they work seems quite complex so maybe breaking it down is helpful

In other ways if not above

@nojudgementhere

I have never equated vaccine passports with the Holocaust as I would not want to hurt or offend anyone and I in no way feel the two things are on the same level of atrocity. I doubt whether people who do compare the two are deliberately trying to cause harm or controversy though. I think they are genuinely terrified by the fact that whole sections of populations are all of a sudden being treated as 'unclean' or 'too dangerous to be part of society' and feel unable to adequaely express this. Maybe we should be looking at addressing these points rather than shutting them down?

Factually, people who are unvaccinated are more likely to spread covid to others. They are more likely to catch covid too so being around them is a higher risk in general. They are more likely to be hospitalised using up valuable hospital resources at a time when those resources are limited. People who are unvaccinated have refused to listen to actual experts in the area who have explained time and time again that the vaccine is safe.

We are in the middle of a pandemic. They are statistically more dangerous to be around. They are statistically more likely to infect other people around them. This is the whole rationale for vaccine certs. They are not randomly being singled out. There are valid reasons.

Hope that has addressed those points for you.

Also clearly people who are unvaccinated couldn’t care less about those around them or those who genuinely can’t get the vaccine so I have zero sympathy for their ‘fears’ unless those fears have come about from being engulfed in a conspiracy theory in which case I hope they get psychological help.

@nojudgementhere

I have never equated vaccine passports with the Holocaust as I would not want to hurt or offend anyone and I in no way feel the two things are on the same level of atrocity. I doubt whether people who do compare the two are deliberately trying to cause harm or controversy though. I think they are genuinely terrified by the fact that whole sections of populations are all of a sudden being treated as 'unclean' or 'too dangerous to be part of society' and feel unable to adequaely express this. Maybe we should be looking at addressing these points rather than shutting them down?

I’ll be very frank - your recent post reads as justifying those who are doing this and making excuses for them. It’s something I find frankly abhorrent.

I do also question their expectation to be treated with kid gloves when they consistently refuse to show basic respect to others who also have significant cause for fear in modern society.

I have also spent months on these threads avoiding name calling, not taking sides, trying to share the evidence and dispel misinformation in a measured, calm, factual way.

I don’t doubt some are afraid. I do doubt that they all are, and I absolutely don’t accept that anyone who has taken five minutes to inform themselves about the Holocaust can still turn around and in good faith compare the potential consequences of what most claim to be a short term choice (aren’t most saying they just want longer term data? And most of these public health measures are time limited in law anyway) to the systematic racist excision from society of millions based on their birth, not their choices.

@JassyRadlett

Thank you for confirming that *@JassyRadlett*. I haven't seen any real evidence that introducing vaccine passports will save lives either.

To be fair, I haven’t looked for it, and just as for any other NPIs it’s going to be very hard to be unequivocal and precise.

You could say much the same about lockdowns, capacity restrictions, school closures, mask wearing, or hand washing. There are too many uncontrollable factors to get a clear evidence base on the precise impact of on any of these measures.

The one thing we do have evidence on is the level to which vaccination will change how many of a particular group are likely to be infected at a particular time. A group that is fully vaccinated will, on average, have a significantly lower number of infected people, and the rest of the group will be better protected against catching it from them.

Surely this is exactly the kind of evidence we should be asking for though before introducing something as controversial and potentially damaging as vaccine passports? Just crossing our fingers and hoping it will work seems a little unscientific to me and having seen the damage earlier NPIs have created (10,000 non-Covid excess deaths in the last four months alone) I'm a little bit wary of another one being introduced.

@Lostinacloud disgusting absolutely disgusting. How dare you compare the murder of millions of innocent Jewish people , crammed onto cattle carts, gassed to death and incinerated in piles of dead bodies to how you can’t go inside for a coffee. I have reported your post.

Surely this is exactly the kind of evidence we should be asking for though before introducing something as controversial and potentially damaging as vaccine passports? Just crossing our fingers and hoping it will work seems a little unscientific to me and having seen the damage earlier NPIs have created (10,000 non-Covid excess deaths in the last four months alone) I'm a little bit wary of another one being introduced.

I’m not advocating for or against any policies, as I’ve said. In general terms, the public health approach to the pandemic has been about balance of risk and harms with very shaky data on all sides. Public health crises are messy. Those involving new diseases even more so. The certainty all of us would like for policymaking simply doesn’t exist.

@Lostinacloud

I can understand the comparison even if it’s a very contentious subject.

In France today, 2021, if you are not vaccinated then you are now in a group of people not accepted in society much anymore. Yes it’s ultimately a choice not to be vaccinated but then it’s also a choice as to what religion you follow. Somehow, perhaps without expecting or understanding it, you have now found yourself in a group that is now barred from the following;
Cafes
Restaurants
Bars
Libraries
Large department stores
Gyms
Sports clubs
Association events
Planes
Long distance trains
School parent evenings
Museums
Doctors
Dentists
Any non-essential healthcare provision
Tourist attractions
Leisure centres
Holiday parks
Hotels
Large events
Theatres
Exhibitions
Nightclubs
Lectures
And there’s probably more. It was shopping centres until it was pointed out that many have supermarkets inside them.

The vaccine passport applies to all over 12’s so any preference or caution exerted to delay vaccinating your teens until there is perhaps some further evidence of safety now means that your whole family can’t eat out together or go to any of the above places even if the parents are both vaccinated.

Of course you can also (at the moment before they start implementing this 2g or 3G nonsense like in Germany and Austria) get entry if you have a negative test no older than 72 hours at a cost of 25 euros or have had a positive pcr test within the past 6 months.

It doesn’t matter if you’re actually just not bloody ill or if you’ve had covid over 6 months ago and survived it fine without needing so much as a gp’s télé consultation. You are lumped into the same group and slowly segregated to the point where in some countries it’s now acceptable to lockdown only the unvaccinated or like in Singapore not pay anything towards their medical costs.

How far do we think it’s acceptable for this segregation to go?

I have nothing against vaccines for those that need them or want them, I have everything against segregation of a group of people based on their medical choice.

Dd14's school are looking at doing a school trip to Paris next June. We are in England and 14 year olds are only allowed one dose (unless clinically vulnerable) Dd has had that dose, but I'm wondering if it's going to be pointless English schools booking trips to France for 12-16 year olds if they won't be allowed to visit anything, despite having taken all the jabs on offer in their country.

You do that @Thatsthewaytis.

It’s an uncomfortable situation and I appreciate that but I’m not making the comparison you state. I am simply observing that there is organised segregation going on and instead of reporting such facts, people want that information removed from view and therefore they can be happy to turn a blind eye.

You attempting to paint me as some kind of monster when I’ve said nothing worth reporting is odd.

I can understand the comparison even if it’s a very contentious subject.

No. They are nowhere near comparable, and it’s not ‘contentious’, it’s disgustingly trying to co-opt another group’s horror for their own purpose even when that group is asking them not to.

Even if you remove the basic element - a choice rather than an ethnicity - it is nowhere near comparable.

Trying to draw an equivalence is frankly racist. Suggesting there is any legitimate comparison is either catastrophically ignorant or intentionally offensive.

@Lostinacloud

You do that *@Thatsthewaytis*.

It’s an uncomfortable situation and I appreciate that but I’m not making the comparison you state. I am simply observing that there is organised segregation going on and instead of reporting such facts, people want that information removed from view and therefore they can be happy to turn a blind eye.

You attempting to paint me as some kind of monster when I’ve said nothing worth reporting is odd.

I have never equated vaccine passports with the Holocaust as I would not want to hurt or offend anyone and I in no way feel the two things are on the same level of atrocity

And you replied I can understand the comparison

The comparison of not being able to get a coffee to the Holocaust.

Disgraceful.

@JassyRadlett

I can understand the comparison even if it’s a very contentious subject.

No. They are nowhere near comparable, and it’s not ‘contentious’, it’s disgustingly trying to co-opt another group’s horror for their own purpose even when that group is asking them not to.

Even if you remove the basic element - a choice rather than an ethnicity - it is nowhere near comparable.

Trying to draw an equivalence is frankly racist. Suggesting there is any legitimate comparison is either catastrophically ignorant or intentionally offensive.

Well said.

What rubbish! I didn’t intend to get into an argument about history so I’m not going to entertain you any further but my view on vaccine passports as discriminatory and socially divisive remain in place. If that is contrary to your opinion then guess what…people disagree and I am happy to agree to disagree with you.

Vaccine passports in this pandemic makes no sense.
Vaccines are not stopping transmission. Yes, the headline is that they do lower transmission but the small print is ‘not by much’. the figures show that plenty of vaccinated people are passing it on. Seeing as immunity wanes, it would make sense that ‘transmissibility’ wanes. So, the protection from the vaccine does not last long.
The vaccine helps to protect the individual from severe illness but they can still spread it.
It would be better to focus on underlying health.
Quite a few studies have been done to show how vitamin d protects against severe illness too. Mortality rates and vitamin d levels have a direct correlation.
Healthy bmi and sleep have also been studied.
Why are people not angry that we’re not given more guidance about this rather than dividing us to be angry at each other?

@Lostinacloud

What rubbish! I didn’t intend to get into an argument about history so I’m not going to entertain you any further but my view on vaccine passports as discriminatory and socially divisive remain in place. If that is contrary to your opinion then guess what…people disagree and I am happy to agree to disagree with you.

I hope you will go now and actually read up on the Holocaust and anti Semitism and educate yourself. There is no excuse in this day and age for such ignorance.