No set bedrooms?

[SouthernFashionista]

In a court case that is currently ongoing there was mention of a situation where individuals in a house had no set bed or bedroom and everyone just slept ‘wherever’. The thoughts of it bothered me. I think every child needs their own space. I know it’s clearly symptomatic of a chaotic household and lifestyle. Is this something many of you have come across? AIBU for being shocked?

@SouthernFashionista

In a court case that is currently ongoing there was mention of a situation where individuals in a house had no set bed or bedroom and everyone just slept ‘wherever’. The thoughts of it bothered me. I think every child needs their own space. I know it’s clearly symptomatic of a chaotic household and lifestyle. Is this something many of you have come across? AIBU for being shocked?

Perhaps from a culture where family lives in one room together, so not necessarily a symptom of a chaotic lifestyle

@Jourdain11

Neither of my DDs wear pyjamas or nighties, they have an inherited aversion (from me!).

But do they go to bed in the clothes they've worn all day? Do they have clean clothes for school?

Totally different

@melj1213 Thank you, you’ve made the point I was trying to make r.e. pyjamas much more eloquently.

It’s about whether children have the option or provision of these things, or not. So the posters cheerily saying “sometimes my child likes to sleep in the guest room!” or “my daughter insisted on wearing her Disney princess dress to bed last night!” are spectacularly missing the point. And come across as unable to understand that some people live in wildly different circumstances to themselves.

Some kids don’t have the option of a safe clean bed or own any pyjamas. And - taken into account alongside other factors - these can be a sign of neglect.

I was thinking about this thread when I got into bed last night, a safe, warm, clean bed, that is my 'western norm' if you like. I am happy to sleep in other beds so long as they meet that criteria. All over the world other cultures have their 'norm', the children are not neglected because they sleep on a mat on the floor with other family members etc.

So often in this country we read about children who have been neglected, hurt, even murdered and so often we read that the home was squalid, chaotic and that the child was 'sleeping' on a wet dirty bare mattress in a filthy room. That is nothing like a child wanting to sleep in a fairy dress in the spare clean safe bed after having a nice dinner, a bath and a story. To me it's a basic of life, children need a safe, clean warm place to sleep, even if they share a room with any amount of siblings/parents.

Having personal space that is exclusively yours is a very western (privileged) ideology. Lots of people around the world don't have this and they thrive. My ds was friends with a boy with Bangladeshi descent and it didn't seem as if they had designated bedrooms or even beds. They appeared a very stable, loving family, I really could not describe them as "chaotic" in any way. It's just a different way if doing things.

I get that having your own bed may be a privileged western idea, but if we are living in a society where some things are normal then we have to decide if some things are not acceptable. So for example in some societies physical chastisement to the extent of using an implement on the child is 'normal', in the UK it would not be 'normal' and would be child abuse. Living in a home where a child has to find a sleeping space at night, where bedding isn't provided, where no-one really bothers if the child doesn't get enough sleep due to the sleeping arrangements could well be seen as abuse.
I know that other cultures do things differently, but that was used as an excuse for not investigating FGM or forced marriage as 'they' do that.
As I have said several times, it could be a red flag that the child is not being cared for adequately if no-one is bothered about where a child sleeps. I have visited houses where the child sleeps on a dirty mattress with no sheets, no bedding and the family pet for company, who may well have used the mattress as a lavatory We aren't talking about sharing rooms but about parents caring for their child in an acceptable manner.

I shared with my sister right up until we both married but we had our own beds we didnt just get into the one that was empty. She had her own posters over hers and I had mine. That was our own space.

@Lemonlady22

It's terrible that councils don't house people with enough bedrooms for each child. Although I suppose the answer is to only have as many children as bedrooms allow in your council property

@lemonlady22 Exactly, just like you would if you'd bought a house. I'd love a large family but wouldn't have the room, ergo I'll stick to less kids and more space. Why on earth some people think that living in a council house gives them the right to a bedroom per child no matter how many they decide to have is beyond me.

@EverdeRose most people renting a home from the council or housing associations are more than aware that they will not be offered a house with a room for each child if they have multiple children.

Most housing associations have massively long lists of families in overcrowded houses.

@Whatinthelord
And yet strangely I know many cases in real life where that's exactly what happens.

3 kids in a 2 bed house, we better start applying for 3 beds or get on home swap.

Actually since the 'bedroom tax' local authorities don't house families so that each child has a bedroom. The rules are boy and girl under 10 years of age then they share, when one reaches 10 then that child has his/her own bedroom (when one reaches puberty the child should not be in a bedroom with a person of the opposite sex It's called moral overcrowding and is Environmental Health legislation). Two females i.e. sisters or two males i.e. brothers can continue to share up to the age of 16.

[quote EverdeRose]@Whatinthelord
And yet strangely I know many cases in real life where that's exactly what happens.

3 kids in a 2 bed house, we better start applying for 3 beds or get on home swap.[/quote]
Well in the areas I have experience of a family would be waiting a long time and would only be moved after either a long wait or if they were overcrowded. If not enough bedrooms people are expected to use areas such as living rooms as bed room space.

Why doesn't op just post a link to the court case, then everything will be clearer

Bit judgemental, aren't you. So many of my friends grew up in hippy households where every space was a communal one and guess what, none have mental health issues and are all perfectly normal. Some even have brought their own children up like that and there are grandchildren being brought up the same way. Children need to know they are loved and are safe. Everything else is an add-on.

I think what people are getting at is that it's not necessarily such a black and white issue.

Siblings sharing rooms / bed-hopping / not wearing PJs doesn't necessarily = neglect and deprivation, if they are in a happy home and being emotionally and materially provided for.

Child having no bed to sleep in and being expected to wear their clothes to bed because parents can't be bothered to provide nightwear isn't acceptable.

To be honest, you could be in dire poverty but by providing your child with a bed, a drawer, a "safe space" and a vest and leggings or shorts specifically to wear to bed, the intent to parent would be there and that would be "good enough". If those things aren't in place, it implies there is a lack of intent to parent and that's an issue.

In lockdown, my DH was very disturbed by the fact that one of his pupils (primary) was having to fix her own meals each day. It was the fact that this kid was left to pour water over her instant noodles for herself that bothered him more than the fact that she was eating instant noodles every day.

The baby in this case may not have suffered this horrific crime in the ‘chaotic-bed-house’, granted. But the baby’s mother (who has been accused of murder) grew up in that house. And whilst I don’t think someone’s actions always stem directly from their childhood, it’s hardly a ringing endorsement of this set up either.

@Mirw

Bit judgemental, aren't you. So many of my friends grew up in hippy households where every space was a communal one and guess what, none have mental health issues and are all perfectly normal. Some even have brought their own children up like that and there are grandchildren being brought up the same way. Children need to know they are loved and are safe. Everything else is an add-on.

Children need a lot more than love. Maybe ok for a 6 year old (doubtful) but definitely not for a teen.

@Sh05

Why doesn't op just post a link to the court case, then everything will be clearer

The court case is irrelevant. The sleeping arrangements were mentioned in passing.

Do you have a link or reference to this 'moral overcrowding' and bedroom tax guidance please?

Shelter actually provide all of this info on their website. It is quite complicated because living rooms can be counted as rooms that can be slept in. I have never known a local authority allocations policy take that view, but they mostly do accept that over 10-year-olds need to be separated according to sex. All L/As have to publish their allocation policies so if you have a particular issue the best place to start is looking at the website of the L/A where you live.
I still call it moral overcrowding because that is what it was called when I started out, when Adam was a boy.

I agree that every child (and adult) needs their own safe space. I also agree with various pp that the "space" doesn't have to be a personal room or bed.

If a family is so poor that they have 5 kids in a bedsit or motel room, a safe space could mean a personal backpack per child where they can store their favourite toy. It's something that is just yours, that you know will be there and makes you feel more secure.

Everybody needs something to ground them in life - a point of stability - that allows them to feel "this is my safe space". It's not the same thing for everyone but it is the same concept regardless of cash or culture. So, it could be a physical space, a possession, a routine, or a person. It's the "thing" that regulates vulnerability and security. In a truly disordered home, there is not a single thing that a child can point to and say "this is what makes it my home". (It's also likely that, in a disordered home, the child's safe space is probably school or someone else's home.)

This is interesting on a number of fronts
Mostly Cultural bias . Many cultures have loving stable families where having your “own bedroom” is not a factor. Not due to poverty - due to preference

Many Asians live in extended families and I took my wesrern / nuclear family to visit one abroad once. We saw many wonderful things but the thing that stood out for them was the shared communal life . Rooms were assigned to adults of a certain status but not to youngsters. Children could therefore bunk in with “granny and grandad” on the night he promised ghost stories or they could
Bunk in with the other kids and it would be sleepover
Or my kids could be boring and come sleep
With me

The difference is that in a wealthy family where there may be 2 brothers, their wives and kids , grandparents ( as nominal head) and extended cousins who may be at boarding school / job placement for a term and nobody would dream of a hotel
They might be wealthy - but not have enough rooms to accommodate all. So it might make sense to have a girls room, a boys room , or the tots co-sleep with granny whilst mum has the baby

All
Very normal

Also - the beds . They would often be flat and hard ( think Japanese mats rather than air spring mattresses that we have ) and therefore made to whatever size you want - usually the bigger the better if it is a hot country and nobody wants to remotely touch each other . Everyone gets their own cotton sleeping bag effectively - a bit like sleeping in a tent

It’s just a whole different way of seeing bedtime

Just like some folk let their kids cry to sleep
And some co-sleep, there’s room for more !

Ps - my expereince
My kids at different ages fight to have a sleep
With mum , stay up
In theory own bed reading / bunk
In with a sibling and listen to a good audio book together / sneak into a siblings bed because they think they have a better one and sibling got to sleep
With mum

It is musical chairs but it works for us !

@TurnUpTurnip

My child doesn't have a bed.... We cosleep didnt realise that was neglect 😑

That's quite different to what the OP is suggesting. Presumably your child is still reasonably young if you're co-sleeping, but when they come to want their own space eventually, I think it's important for children to have it. It doesn't have to be their own bedroom, but I think every child (who has grown out of co-sleeping) should have their own space.

That said, I appreciate this is a very western-centric view, and things are done differently in different parts of the world. But for kids raised in this country with this country's norms and expectations, I think defined space is important for them.

BIAx3 I am sorry, but you are really missing the point here. The issue is not cultural norms but about whether a child's needs are being met. I have tried to explain, as have others, that it is about whether the child has what could be called the necessities of life, such as a safe place to sleep, clean bedding etc. The child isn't having to crawl into filthy bedding or find some corner they can curl up in. I have honestly been in homes where that is the case; they are called 'chaotic' for a reason.
If you like it is about people caring for their child to a reasonable standard, something which is appropriate and caring, not about playing musical beds or co-sleeping or kids sharing rooms.

@TurnUpTurnip

I hate the every child needs their own space, try living in a council house children are expected to share rooms

I think it means their own space as in a bed/ area which is allocated to them, even if it's within a shared room. Rather than a free for all and anyone sleeping on any bed at any time. That sounds very chaotic and unsettling to me, although it could be the norm for some.