To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

Is she presenting as masculine?

Tbh ive got 1001 things to get on with in my day. If someone appears male Id probably refer to them as that..... Trying to work out if someone with cropped hair wearing masculine clothes is mum or dad without offending them isnt being added to my list. If your partner is choosing to present in a typically male way then it's up to her to introduce herself first as dds mum. And make it commonly known she has two mums.

People arent mind readers, it's up to both pf you to adapt the way you do things to make things easier for your dd.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

Your partner clearly has somewhat of a masculine appearance about her that despite hearing her high voice people still assume she is male. You’re doing lots of mental gymnastics to assert that that isnt the case and that lots of different people are referring to her as male for some other reason that isn’t based on how she looks.

As I said, I would say she's soft butch; I don't think there's nothing masculine about her at all. The problem is that people automatically assume she's male when she's with me and DD, when they don't when she is alone.

It's not that I don't get that she has some attributes you'd call stereotypically masculine, like short hair, but I don't know how to navigate people consistently assuming she's a man, even when we've said she's not.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

Your partner clearly has somewhat of a masculine appearance about her that despite hearing her high voice people still assume she is male. You’re doing lots of mental gymnastics to assert that that isnt the case and that lots of different people are referring to her as male for some other reason that isn’t based on how she looks.

I think you're missing the key point that the mistake doesn't tend to happen when her DP is alone. It's the context of the family group that makes the heteronormative assumption of 'mum and dad' kick in. Her DP doesn't look like a man, just less feminine than the OP.

It was your twisting of my words that makes you obtuse OP. Something you have done already with a PP on this thread.

I did not say that your DP was being covert. I said she clearly didn’t realise your DP was breastfeeding, which she clearly didn’t because otherwise she wouldn’t have referred to her as a male. Obviously. She didn’t see your DP breastfeeding and then think “ahh but I I had already decided that was a male so I will refer to them as such”

@Willyoujustbequiet

I don't mean this to sound harsh but I honestly think most school mums just wouldn't care that much - if they are anything like me you're not on their radar, in a perimenopausal brain fog. They are far too busy thinking about their own problems to give you head space. It wont be deliberate.

That's exactly it - I don't think they care at all, and I certainly don't think it occurs to them they might be upsetting her.

I really don't see what OP is expecting here. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time in the day to carefully analyse every person I meet from head to toe to work out if they are male, female or male who looks female or female who looks male. From the way you describe your partner, she sounds masculine. People don't wake up in the morning and giggle to themselves wondering how they can misgender someone today. It is not deliberate. If it's not deliberate and your partner continues to present herself in a masculine way (which is of course her right) I'm not sure what you expect?

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

It was your twisting of my words that makes you obtuse OP. Something you have done already with a PP on this thread.

I did not say that your DP was being covert. I said she clearly didn’t realise your DP was breastfeeding, which she clearly didn’t because otherwise she wouldn’t have referred to her as a male. Obviously. She didn’t see your DP breastfeeding and then think “ahh but I I had already decided that was a male so I will refer to them as such”

I'm really sorry, I've clearly upset you. I don't understand what you're getting at here, so I'm probably missing something.

If it's clearer: no, my DP wasn't breastfeeding in a way that was easily overlooked. I do know what you mean; later on she got to the stage where she could just appear to be cradling DD and you'd have to look quite close to notice she was BF. But this was quite early, and actually, it was obvious she was feeding. And the waitress didn't bother to notice, not because it wasn't obvious, but simply because she had mentally categorised DP as a dad and wasn't really looking.

@Autumndays123

I really don't see what OP is expecting here. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time in the day to carefully analyse every person I meet from head to toe to work out if they are male, female or male who looks female or female who looks male. From the way you describe your partner, she sounds masculine. People don't wake up in the morning and giggle to themselves wondering how they can misgender someone today. It is not deliberate. If it's not deliberate and your partner continues to present herself in a masculine way (which is of course her right) I'm not sure what you expect?

I never said it was deliberate.

My partner doesn't present herself in a masculine way.

There must be something masculine about her though for it to keep happening. I don't think it can be put down to hetero stereotypes...if I were out with a female friend or sister and children nobody would assume one of us was a man to fit a norm, they'd just see 2 women surely.

I think you’re right, they are just seeing trousers, short hair, female partner = must be male. I also think there’s a chance that people think she might be trans and are super afraid of misgendering a trans person that they would rather be wrong the other way.

I’m a teacher and recently spent an hour avoiding any pronouns with a group (cover lesson) because there were 2 students that were obviously female but presenting slightly male (short hair and school trousers). We have a lot of girls who are identifying as trans and I was worried about upsetting someone so got myself in a right pickle. It turned out that one of them was trans, the other was recovering from cancer treatment so I could have upset either quite easily.

And this is the problem with the way gender ideology is going. It is erasing the existence of women who don't follow all sex based stereotypes. Everyone is so terrified of offending a trans person by misgendering them, they forget lesbians exist.

I'd hazard a guess your DP's hair is shorter or more masculine than yours? I was often mistaken as a boy when I was in my 20's with very short hair. When my son had long hair as a toddler, everyone thought he was a girl which was fine and I understood that, but what did annoy me was a woman at our weekly toddler group who I spoke to regularly and it never sunk in for her. She would keep calling him she/her even in the middle of a conversation where I was clearly saying he/him/his. It was bizarre and just rude.

@MobyDicksTinyCanoe

Is she presenting as masculine?

Tbh ive got 1001 things to get on with in my day. If someone appears male Id probably refer to them as that..... Trying to work out if someone with cropped hair wearing masculine clothes is mum or dad without offending them isnt being added to my list. If your partner is choosing to present in a typically male way then it's up to her to introduce herself first as dds mum. And make it commonly known she has two mums.

People arent mind readers, it's up to both pf you to adapt the way you do things to make things easier for your dd.

No, she isn't presenting as masculine.

She does introduce herself as DD's mum; we do make it known DD has two mums.

And the waitress didn't bother to notice, not because it wasn't obvious, but simply because she had mentally categorised DP as a dad and wasn't really looking.

Didn’t bother to notice? Or just didn’t notice? Because it wasnt what she there to do? Rather than because she has decided your DP was male so couldn’t be arsed to look for boobs?

I think you mean in the BF case that if your Dp had been alone or with a man, the waitress would very likely have pretty easily recognised her as a woman and clocked what she was doing, is that about right, OP?

I don't know what the answer is, but it's an interesting conundrum ... and YANBU.

@lawofdistraction

There must be something masculine about her though for it to keep happening. I don't think it can be put down to hetero stereotypes...if I were out with a female friend or sister and children nobody would assume one of us was a man to fit a norm, they'd just see 2 women surely.

Oh, absolutely there's something masculine - she doesn't wear dresses or high heels.

It's not that she's ultra femme and wandering around in lipstick and false lashes.

But even so, it's surprising it happens so much, and it's tricky to know what to do. If it were purely about her looks (rather than the context of us as a family), I think she'd be mistaken for a man when she was on her own, as well.

there were 2 students that were obviously female but presenting slightly male (short hair and school trousers).

Not your fault for thinking this but it’s such a sad state of affairs that having short hair and wearing trousers is now ‘presenting slightly male.’

When I was young all my aunties and my mum had short hair and my sisters and I did too - it was just considered a plain/sensible haircut. The longest I had my hair my whole early childhood was a bob. My two girls also had short hair although dd10 had grown her long now. But it’s sad that we now look at a girl with short hair and think ‘oh I wonder if she is trying to look male.’

@ErrolTheDragon

I think you mean in the BF case that if your Dp had been alone or with a man, the waitress would very likely have pretty easily recognised her as a woman and clocked what she was doing, is that about right, OP?

I don't know what the answer is, but it's an interesting conundrum ... and YANBU.

Yes!

When DP used to go to rhyme time when DD was tiny, she got on with the other mums and no one thought she was anything except a mum.

If she goes somewhere with DD without me, she is always assumed to be DD's mum - in fact, they look very alike, so it's easy!

It's not that DP is totally unambiguous - everyone always clocks her as a lesbian, which I think is a function of looking masculine (depressingly). What bothers me is that, in the context of a family, she suddenly becomes 'obviously' male to a lot of people.

Sounds awful. I don't believe people are trying to be PC - you are right that they just see what they assume to be the situation.

I had an awkward time once when a friend and her female partner brought their DD round for a playdate. My DH was with us out in the garden and said to her partner - "so which school do you go to then"? Yes she was lucky enough to look young and have lovely skin, and she was a bit younger than my friend - but I really don't think she looked like a teenager. DH assumed she was the child's older sister - would he have thought that if she had been a (guessing the age here) 23 year old man?

I was mortified and I expect they both were too - for several reasons! The only possible excuse is that we are in our 50s, so tbf anyone under 35 looks incredibly young to both of us - but even so.....

But I do feel for you. Unless your DP wants to wear pink sparkles or a sign saying 'we are a couple' I don't know what you can do. Just keep talking to people, keep correcting them, and roll your eyes at their assumptions. Hopefully by the next generation things will be different - but that's no help to you now....

It's a sign of the times OP, that lesbians have become so marginalised and invisible the general population don't recognise one when they see one.

If Stonewall could get their head out of their arse and do the job they were set up to do this type of thing would be a thing of the past.

[quote namechangerforthisconfessionn]@SarahAndQuack try not to worry about your DD, my oldest DC has a classmate who has 2 mums,
My DC came back from school (aged 5ish) and said so and so has 2 mums and no dad and so and so has a mum and a grandad and that was it, classmate never had any kids say anything to them kids seem to accept what they are told so tell DD to tell people she has 2 mums. Sorry your DP is upset it's a shame adults aren't more like children [/quote]
I just saw this post - that's such a lovely reminder! Thank you.

I think it’s most likely a case of seeing what you expect to see. Like others have said, you in a dress, child with you, partner in trousers… must be male. It’s wrong. You’re justified to be upset by it but I doubt it’s deliberate. How to change it I don’t know. I don’t think your partner should have to change herself, and if I’m honest I doubt it would make much difference. I’m not gay myself, but I know whenever I’ve met same sex couples I’ve never been “surprised”. I do think however I’ve been guilty of assuming someone has a partner or the opposite sex.

I’ve noticed that sometimes when I’ve spoken to someone who is in a same sex relationship they may be more pointed about mentioning things. “He calls me mummy and my partner Alison mama, we had to be inventive as there is no daddy!” That kind of thing. But I suspect some people would still respond with “what does your husband do again?”

Unhelpful reply I know but I suspect there is little you can do. Over time school parents will get to know you and realise. The general public I suspect are a lose cause

My theory, OP, is that gender norms are more rigid now, weirdly, than they were when I was growing up. In the 70's and 80's quite a lot of girls had short hair, whereas it is far more uncommon. We also used to wear jeans and a sweatshirt. This wasn't 'masculine' at that time, but it now is perceived as if it is.

My daughter cut her hair into a short style and got mistaken for a boy several times, by teachers, and was also insulted walking home by a mum who told their small child who asked 'why is that boy wearing a skirt?' 'don't look at him, he's just doing it for attention'. My daughter is not a boy, nor trans, just a girl with short hair but it became very tiring for her and eventually grew her hair out to stop the ridiculousness.

It's a backwards step really for people to see jeans, a jumper and nice short hair as being a man basically, because of course lots of women like to look this way. It does seem that performing femininity overtly in a more stereotyped way is now associated with being female.

It sounds very annoying for you and your partner, and all I can suggest you do is to just keep reiterating that you are both female, and correct anyone, and just keep going. You can just say to your daughter how silly these people are, thinking only boys can have short hair, and I'm sure as she gets older you can work it out as you sound emotionally mature and supportive as a couple.

It's not deliberate always, but this constant stereotyping of women with short hair as men is very tiring and regressive.

@Franklyfrost

The brain doesn’t process all incoming information, a large percentage of it is just what the brain expects to see. This isn’t prejudice, it’s just neurology. It’s most likely your partner is a man, they superficially could pass as a man so a busy person on school run, vaguely aware of who you are, will just ‘see’ that your partner is male. It different to assuming that all women have male partners iyswim, it’s just that people don’t double check the genders of other parents on the school run.

Make it obvious, Refer to your FEMALE partner as often as possible with other parents. Talk to your kid honestly, in terms they can understand about the myriad of combinations of mummies and daddies in the real world verses the social expectation of having one mummy and one daddy.

Yes, I know that about the brain, that's why I pointed it out in my OP: it's unconscious bias.

I do already talk to my child honestly (who doesn't?).

I am being really prickly, I know. But ... if my partner were totally masculine-presenting, if we kept our lesbianism secret, if we never mentioned it to our child, yes, of course I'd understand why people might misgender DP and upset her and DD.

But the issue isn't that.

They're not mis-gendering. They're mis-sexing.

Funny thing, the English language.

@WaitingForEgg

I think it’s most likely a case of seeing what you expect to see. Like others have said, you in a dress, child with you, partner in trousers… must be male. It’s wrong. You’re justified to be upset by it but I doubt it’s deliberate. How to change it I don’t know. I don’t think your partner should have to change herself, and if I’m honest I doubt it would make much difference. I’m not gay myself, but I know whenever I’ve met same sex couples I’ve never been “surprised”. I do think however I’ve been guilty of assuming someone has a partner or the opposite sex.

I’ve noticed that sometimes when I’ve spoken to someone who is in a same sex relationship they may be more pointed about mentioning things. “He calls me mummy and my partner Alison mama, we had to be inventive as there is no daddy!” That kind of thing. But I suspect some people would still respond with “what does your husband do again?”

Unhelpful reply I know but I suspect there is little you can do. Over time school parents will get to know you and realise. The general public I suspect are a lose cause

YY, it's most certainly that - seeing what you expect to see.

We of course do the pointed reference thing - as you say, everyone does, and you get used to doing it. And, yes, you're right, people do still respond with a heteronormative 'and what about your husband ...' line!

It's not unhelpful - it's in a way useful that you're telling me there's not a magic answer we've not thought of.