To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

@2319inprogress

Humans, particularly females, can accurately identify the sex of other people nearly all the time so I would assume that people think that your partner wishes to be perceived as male & are trying to get it "right".

Unless this is when she's not actually there in which case I would think people are forgetting who you/she is & defaulting to assuming that you have a male partner.

Do you have evidence for this? I'd love to see it, since colleagues working in academic research disagree.

I fear it may be a long wait for the CofE to change - I think it would actually require legislation as well as them finally agreeing to it. (Iirc getting gay marriage legalised was being blocked by the division in the established church so the government cut through it by excluding them so that everyone else could go ahead if they wanted..something like that?)

So you and your dp are the same height, wear similar clothes, have similar appearances, both have short hair, but upon seeing the pair of you the vast majority assume you are a woman and she is a man? I think you have to accept the fact that she has a masculine appearance and people are not trying to be rude, which is why the person you called out was mortified

Outsiders don't see the detail of people, and don't feel the need to look for it. If someone looks like a man to me, I don't doubt myself.

@StillWeRise

if your DD has only just started school, it's still early days and people will get it eventually. I agree with PPs, frame this as 'haha people do make silly mistakes sometimes, but never mind, they don't mean to be unkind' Is there a class whatsapp or similar where you can say 'Jane here, my partner Mary will be collecting DD today....' or whatever?

Of course we do that, and of course we're not naive enough to imagine doing that a few times would be enough! But given we've had several weeks of school gates, on top of five outdoor settling-in days last year, on top of a couple of assemblies ... at some point, I think us hinting that we're two women by using female names might be too subtle.

** They probably think she wants to be referred to as a man if she is wearing men's clothing or unisex and has short hair, looks masculine.

Dammed if they do damned if they don't!!

How are they to know she's not trans if she looks ambiguous.**

^This

@Winniemarysarah

So you and your dp are the same height, wear similar clothes, have similar appearances, both have short hair, but upon seeing the pair of you the vast majority assume you are a woman and she is a man? I think you have to accept the fact that she has a masculine appearance and people are not trying to be rude, which is why the person you called out was mortified

No, I'm 5'4. I wear dresses. We don't look alike particularly.

I'm actually curious @Winniemarysarah - can you point me to the post that made you think we were the same height, or wore similar clothes, or had similar appearances?

i remember a friend of mine had a badge that said 'how dare you presume I'm heterosexual' maybe you could try that

Maybe you're just going to have to mess with their heads challenge their unconscious biases by swapping clothing styles. (Not a serious suggestion but might make an interesting experiment.)

Please forgive my use of terms as I’m not sure of the correct language but is your partner what might be described as a ‘butch’ lesbian? It sounds like you’re a butch and femme couple (I dip my foot in lesbian subreddits sometimes out of curiosity).

If so, some butch lesbians can be pretty masculine looking, even if a more feminine looking woman with the same hair and outfit might never be mistaken for a man. I imagine if I had a short haircut I’d possibly look like a more feminine man as I don’t have the most feminine face (I am short and curvy though so unlikely).

Obviously she’s free to dress and present however she wants but some people do look ambiguous.

@drpet49

** They probably think she wants to be referred to as a man if she is wearing men's clothing or unisex and has short hair, looks masculine.

Dammed if they do damned if they don't!!

How are they to know she's not trans if she looks ambiguous.**

^This

But she doesn't mostly wear men's clothes or unisex.

I am struggling to see how someone who's in the act of breastfeeding looks masculine.

DP's standard clothing would be either women's jeans from Next, or Seasalt women's cords, with a hoodie from Seasalt with flowers on it. She does own some more butch clothing, but at the moment she doesn't wear it much, and certainly not on the school run.

@StillWeRise

i remember a friend of mine had a badge that said 'how dare you presume I'm heterosexual' maybe you could try that

I love it!

It's weird how people pick one 'cue' that overrides any others. In my case It was that my DS having long hair was the override factor that made people assume he was a girl, even if he was playing football in a boys' team, being referred to as a boy's name and called 'he', dressed in camouflage gear - none of this made a difference, it was 'isn't your daughter well behaved' because of the hair. I am guessing with you two, the cue is you as a feminine presenting woman with a child mean your partner is presumed to be a man, even if other things clearly contradict that.

That isn't a solution, I know. I did have lots of long conversations with my DS though about gender, sexism and stereotypes. Maybe it's time for that in an age appropriate way with your DD.

SarahAndQuack

^2319inprogress*
*Humans, particularly females, can accurately identify the sex of other people nearly all the time so I would assume that people think that your partner wishes to be perceived as male & are trying to get it "right".^

Unless this is when she's not actually there in which case I would think people are forgetting who you/she is & defaulting to assuming that you have a male partner.

Do you have evidence for this? I'd love to see it, since colleagues working in academic research disagree.

If you & your colleagues in academic research think that humans can't tell the difference between male & female humans then why would you be surprised/annoyed that people get it wrong w.r.t. your partner

@ErrolTheDragon

Maybe you're just going to have to mess with their heads challenge their unconscious biases by swapping clothing styles. (Not a serious suggestion but might make an interesting experiment.)

Oh, that would be fun. I actually got DP to wear one of my dresses when we first got together - she looked like a cat forced to wear a dog's clothing! She tried on one of my dresses in early pregnancy, too, but she said it just wasn't comfortable. She has a very feminine figure, though, so it's certainly not that.

I randomly get a lot of radical feminists thinking I'm secretly a man, just because I have strong facial features. And yes, my voice is very unmasculine but they still weren't convinced by it. They actually can be nasty about it and see things that aren't there to a psychotic level.

@SarahAndQuack I'm sure as people get to know your partner they'll soon see her for the person she is. I can imagine how annoying it is, though.

@2319inprogress

SarahAndQuack

^2319inprogress*
*Humans, particularly females, can accurately identify the sex of other people nearly all the time so I would assume that people think that your partner wishes to be perceived as male & are trying to get it "right".^

Unless this is when she's not actually there in which case I would think people are forgetting who you/she is & defaulting to assuming that you have a male partner.

Do you have evidence for this? I'd love to see it, since colleagues working in academic research disagree.

If you & your colleagues in academic research think that humans can't tell the difference between male & female humans then why would you be surprised/annoyed that people get it wrong w.r.t. your partner

I never said anyone couldn't tell the difference between men and women.

I am just surprised if there's research saying people never get confused.

I am struggling to see how someone who's in the act of breastfeeding looks masculine.

Me too tbh. But clearly there must be something. Unless the waitress couldn’t actually tell your DP was breastfeeding. What did she say to indicate she thought she was a man?

I am just surprised if there's research saying people never get confused.

That’s not what PP said.

If I was constantly misgendered, I would have to look at the motivation behind it. The majority of people surely would not maliciously misgender me.

So I would just have to suck it up. That people aren’t aware of my biological sex based solely on my appearance.

In my experience kids who have gay parents will all go through a stage of wondering which is mum and which is dad. It’s what your friends at school ask you, what new teachers might ask and all that.

As to your partner “looking male” based on your description she could easily look male. Nothing she can do about it except change her appearance. Just correct people and move on.

@bluetongue

Please forgive my use of terms as I’m not sure of the correct language but is your partner what might be described as a ‘butch’ lesbian? It sounds like you’re a butch and femme couple (I dip my foot in lesbian subreddits sometimes out of curiosity).

If so, some butch lesbians can be pretty masculine looking, even if a more feminine looking woman with the same hair and outfit might never be mistaken for a man. I imagine if I had a short haircut I’d possibly look like a more feminine man as I don’t have the most feminine face (I am short and curvy though so unlikely).

Obviously she’s free to dress and present however she wants but some people do look ambiguous.

Well, you'll have to forgive me too, because I also say 'butch'! When I met DP she found the term very offensive. I would say she is soft butch. She isn't masculine looking really.

I am probably fairly femme (though, in best MN feminist tradition, my legs could do with a shave atm). I think the issue is that we polarise each other. Compared to a lot of women, I am not especially feminine-looking; she is not very masculine looking.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

I am just surprised if there's research saying people never get confused.

That’s not what PP said.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood! I will go back and re-read - but it is a fast-moving thread and I really didn't mean to misrepresent.

@nomorebored

It's weird how people pick one 'cue' that overrides any others. In my case It was that my DS having long hair was the override factor that made people assume he was a girl, even if he was playing football in a boys' team, being referred to as a boy's name and called 'he', dressed in camouflage gear - none of this made a difference, it was 'isn't your daughter well behaved' because of the hair. I am guessing with you two, the cue is you as a feminine presenting woman with a child mean your partner is presumed to be a man, even if other things clearly contradict that.

That isn't a solution, I know. I did have lots of long conversations with my DS though about gender, sexism and stereotypes. Maybe it's time for that in an age appropriate way with your DD.

YY, it is exactly like that! It's fascinating on one level, isn't it - we humans must be so incredibly efficient at sorting things into categories, because we need so little key information for it.

We do have conversations with DD, but perhaps we need to do more.