To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

@ArcheryAnnie

How your DP would like to handle this is very much up to her, but I wanted to say some things about how children respond to confusions and stereotyping about sex.

I think quite small children do pick up very stereotypical ideas about "what a man looks like" and "what a woman looks like" from about the time they start nursery. My DS once came back from primary school and announced "girls have long hair and wear skirts" and I just gently asked him about whether he's ever seen me wear a skirt (no), whether his friend James' dad ever wears skirts (yes, he got married in a kilt and the wedding pics are all over their living room), whether any member of the family wears anything that looks like a dress (yes, great grand-dad, who wore a long white kurta), and so on. Same with hairstyles, and all the women I know with short-back-and-sides. (I did not tell him then that his godfather was a retired drag queen, and used to have quite a lot of skirts, but saved that for when he was quite a lot older...)

At the same time DS was often taken for a girl, because he had longish hair (and didn't want it cut), and because I dressed him in bright colours (easier to keep track of when running around in the park), but he never got upset - he barely noticed After a time I stopped correcting people when I saw how little he cared, because I didn't want to make it a "thing", or make it seem like he was being insulted in some way. People stopped calling him "miss" when he got to six foot and grew a moustache, but with long hair he still very, very occasionally gets called "miss" when people can't see his face. He - a straight man - still couldn't care less.

All of which is to say - if you want your DD to grow up into the kind of person who won't casually assume a woman is a man because they are wearing jeans, have short hair, and are partnered with another woman, then just carry on as you are, and when DD asks questions, answer them honestly - eg if she days "why did Tom's dad call Mum a man?" then you can just say because he was being a little bit silly and didn't look properly, and so on.

(As an aside, it's amazing what strong signals hair sends to some people. I now have long hair, and am currently thinking about cutting it short because to a lot of men - the same sort who think my son is a "miss", just because of his hair, - also think long hair = younger. Even though my long hair is streaked with grey, an unwelcome side effect of wearing a mask is that when I take it off, revealing my wrinkles and jowls, the shock and horror on some strangers' faces, quickly covered up in polite confusion, is getting a bit much. I'd really rather signal from the start that I am older!)

YY, think that's absolutely it, and we are very conscious of it.

I'm not worried about DD growing up to make gender stereotypes - she won't, I think, because she's already actively uneasy about them, even though that's sometimes expressed by being very forceful about wanting us to conform. But I am worried she might get the message that conforming to the stereotype is somehow better, or that, if you are not happy with the way people treat you, the answer is that you need to conform more closely to the stereotype. She does, sadly, already seem to have some sense that this is so.

@GuppytheCat

I wonder if it’s a question of contrast, if you are a very ‘feminine’ woman.

DH and his family are all tall, but DH is exceptionally so at 6ft 8. People who first knew him and his brother as a pair often comment that they ‘hadn’t realised you were tall!’ to BIL on first meeting him alone.

BIL is 6ft 4. He’s not exactly a midget. But people are dim.

No, I'm not a very 'feminine' woman.

When I met DP, I always wore dresses. Often they were tight and showed cleavage, or I'd wear heels. I never wore much makeup or had very long hair at the time. Since we had DD, I've gained weight (I was a slim size 12 and now more of a fat size 14), and I rarely wear heels as they're not good for chasing children. I often wear typical 'mum' style leggings and a tunic.

I have not seen any change in how people treat us, based on how I dress.

All of which is to say - if you want your DD to grow up into the kind of person who won't casually assume a woman is a man because they are wearing jeans, have short hair, and are partnered with another woman, then just carry on as you are, and when DD asks questions, answer them honestly - eg if she days "why did Tom's dad call Mum a man?" then you can just say because he was being a little bit silly and didn't look properly, and so on.

I do agree with this. Basically I think from an adult POV this is just annoying heteronormative assumptions and from a child POV they just need a listening ear and the willingness to say ‘Yes, we ate different but different is no problem at all’.

I am worried she might get the message that conforming to the stereotype is somehow better, or that, if you are not happy with the way people treat you, the answer is that you need to conform more closely to the stereotype. She does, sadly, already seem to have some sense that this is so.

I just want to say as well that my DC2, at 5, was REALLY set on things being gender specific and conforming was A Big Deal. Which was a surprise because their same-sex older sibling was the opposite - absolutely DGAF. And it was actually quite hard to get over my own inherent bias that not conforming was somehow ‘better’.

Now both are just their own people, taking the bits of gender stuff they prefer - same-sex but they’re totally different personalities and show that how they like outwardly. Inwardly who the fuck knows? - they’re no-longer small enough to share.

Anyway - to say, it is a long road, but honest communication is really all you can owe your DD.

OP, you are giving this top much headspace and are over-analysing each interaction your OH have to a worrying extent. The way you describe your OH, in my opinion sounds masculine and I would probably think she was a man if I met her. I have meals/coffee with my baby and mother, sister and friends all the time , and not once have any of them been misgendered. Ever. And my mother has a pixie cut/borderline perm hairstyle going on.

If people think your OH is a man, it is because she looks like one. Your clear denial in that just makes things appear more dramatic

@NoSquirrels

I am worried she might get the message that conforming to the stereotype is somehow better, or that, if you are not happy with the way people treat you, the answer is that you need to conform more closely to the stereotype. She does, sadly, already seem to have some sense that this is so.

I just want to say as well that my DC2, at 5, was REALLY set on things being gender specific and conforming was A Big Deal. Which was a surprise because their same-sex older sibling was the opposite - absolutely DGAF. And it was actually quite hard to get over my own inherent bias that not conforming was somehow ‘better’.

Now both are just their own people, taking the bits of gender stuff they prefer - same-sex but they’re totally different personalities and show that how they like outwardly. Inwardly who the fuck knows? - they’re no-longer small enough to share.

Anyway - to say, it is a long road, but honest communication is really all you can owe your DD.

You're lesbian parents?

I am really struggling with this TBH - I keep finding that people who's straight give us this kind of advice, and I always find it just doesn't work because, of course, it's aimed at children and parents in the exact opposite situation from us. How do I adapt it for parents like us?!

In fact your whole posy quite literally says "my DP doesn't look like a man, but people always mistake her for a man, but she's only a bit masculine, but not like a man. I don't understand, people should know she's not a man"

You're lesbian parents?

I am really struggling with this TBH - I keep finding that people who's straight give us this kind of advice, and I always find it just doesn't work because, of course, it's aimed at children and parents in the exact opposite situation from us. How do I adapt it for parents like us?!

Not lesbian parents, no. Sorry! Just annoying straight people again

I’m not sure how you need to adapt that though, or why it’s different?

I’m literally just saying - my bias was my DC rejecting societal norms was more comfortable to my sense of self and a DC who wholeheartedly embraced them in a bit of a zealous fashion was much trickier to accept.

@TreXX

Your “group of friends” from the 80’s is in no way indicative of the general male population from the 80’s. Was the average man in the street wearing it? Those in trades? Those in business? No. Were most school boys wearing it? No and they definitely would have been picked on had they.

So how were “a lot of men” wearing it? If you mean “a lot” as in “a lot of people are trans now” then you might have a point - but actually that’s a tiny amount of people compared to the general population.

@steppemum

How many men in the 80’s were emulating boy George in style ? Very very few. Maybe there were “loads” of men in gay bars dressed like that but that’s about all.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

Doesn’t your DP ever talk or interact with the other parents? Surely it would be immediately obvious she was female if they heard her speak?

I shared an office for 6 months with a young person who, to this date I do not know what their gender is, they looked like a teen boy or a boyish girl, although they were not particularly boyish or girlish, clothes were neutral and neither the voice or the way they behaved revealed a thing. I thought they were transgender but even if they were, I wouldn’t have a clue if they were transitioning to be a male or a female. Their name could be either a male name or a woman nickname.

This person was beautifully placed in the middle, like many other people never signed their emails indicating their pronouns and we were working in an environment where nobody would ask them to clarify what their gender was.

I think it would be unfair to expect people to to get the correct gender if OP’s partner is as gender ambiguous as the person in my office. If I had seen this person had a daughter and a very feminine wife I would have assumed they were a man. If their partner had been more “manly” than them, I would have assumed this person was a woman or perhaps both were male.

I don’t think however that is fair to get annoyed with people because they didn’t get the right gender if OP’s partner was as gender neutral as the person in my office, especially living in an environment, like a small town, were the gender differences are more marked and where same sex couples are not as regularly seen as in cities.

Ockham’s razor and all that.

Look, if people are persistently thinking your partner is a man, there are only tbe following possibilities:

1. People are malicious and out to offend
2. people think she is a trans man
3. you / your partner are imagining it / trolling

• yes , all somewhat improbable-

or, most, likely - and particularly given your description of your partner -

4. she looks somewhat like a man (reinforced by the heronormative centric society we live in).

I am not sure I can put it any more plainly (whilst appreciating how infuriating & hurtful it may be)

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle
^ie your description gives the impression of male dressing (or neutral at most)
Oh, sorry, no, what I was asking was, do posters have a sense of why I might be saying she's not masculine? I mean, do people have a theory of why I'd want to do that?^

Most of DP's clothes are from the womenswear section. She has a few t-shirts from H&M mens, and a couple of unisex hoodies. She does have more stereotypically butch stuff in her wardrobe, but she's not wearing formal jackets down the school gate, so it's not about those things.

Ockham’s razor and all that.

Look, if people are persistently thinking your partner is a man, there are only tbe following possibilities:

1. People are malicious and out to offend
2. people think she is a trans man
3. you / your partner are imagining it / trolling

• yes , all somewhat improbable-

or, most, likely - and particularly given your description of your partner -

4. she looks somewhat like a man (reinforced by the heronormative centric society we live in).

I am not sure I can put it any more plainly (whilst appreciating how infuriating & hurtful it may

Sorry - was trying to respond to your post to me …

The church isn't going to allow marriage of gay couples in your lifetime. There's not even a glimmer of hope of that so if you want to get married it will have to be a civil service. I don't know what you can do about this tbh just correct them

[quote Megalameg]@TreXX

Your “group of friends” from the 80’s is in no way indicative of the general male population from the 80’s. Was the average man in the street wearing it? Those in trades? Those in business? No. Were most school boys wearing it? No and they definitely would have been picked on had they.

So how were “a lot of men” wearing it? If you mean “a lot” as in “a lot of people are trans now” then you might have a point - but actually that’s a tiny amount of people compared to the general population.[/quote]
Why so insistent on dismissing my 'lived experience'

I'm telling you what I saw

You obviously saw something different

So what?

Doesn't make what I'm saying wrong

You're just coming across as a bit weird now

@flippertyop

The church isn't going to allow marriage of gay couples in your lifetime. There's not even a glimmer of hope of that so if you want to get married it will have to be a civil service. I don't know what you can do about this tbh just correct them

But some provinces in the Anglican Communion solemnize same sex marriages. I'm a member of the Episcopal Church in the US, which is one of them. As previous posters have mentioned, the Scottish Episcopal Church is another. Perhaps the CofE will follow at some point in the not too distant future. (I do realize that these churches have faced sanctions for allowing same sex marriage, but they are still in the Anglican Communion.)

@NoSquirrels

You're lesbian parents?

I am really struggling with this TBH - I keep finding that people who's straight give us this kind of advice, and I always find it just doesn't work because, of course, it's aimed at children and parents in the exact opposite situation from us. How do I adapt it for parents like us?!

Not lesbian parents, no. Sorry! Just annoying straight people again

I’m not sure how you need to adapt that though, or why it’s different?

I’m literally just saying - my bias was my DC rejecting societal norms was more comfortable to my sense of self and a DC who wholeheartedly embraced them in a bit of a zealous fashion was much trickier to accept.

You're not annoying at all! And much appreciated.

I think I need to adapt a bit because there's a sort of extra layer of how you have conversations about gender, I guess? DD is both trying to figure out what's 'normal' for men and women, and to figure out how those norms map onto us as her parents.

She has talked about it a bit this weekend, and we've broadly followed the advice on this thread to be pretty matter-of-fact about it, and it has been useful.

[quote MyrtlethePurpleTurtle]@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle
^ie your description gives the impression of male dressing (or neutral at most)
Oh, sorry, no, what I was asking was, do posters have a sense of why I might be saying she's not masculine? I mean, do people have a theory of why I'd want to do that?^

Most of DP's clothes are from the womenswear section. She has a few t-shirts from H&M mens, and a couple of unisex hoodies. She does have more stereotypically butch stuff in her wardrobe, but she's not wearing formal jackets down the school gate, so it's not about those things.

Ockham’s razor and all that.

Look, if people are persistently thinking your partner is a man, there are only tbe following possibilities:

1. People are malicious and out to offend
2. people think she is a trans man
3. you / your partner are imagining it / trolling

• yes , all somewhat improbable-

or, most, likely - and particularly given your description of your partner -

4. she looks somewhat like a man (reinforced by the heronormative centric society we live in).

I am not sure I can put it any more plainly (whilst appreciating how infuriating & hurtful it may[/quote]
Why are you so sure that there can't also be the possibility I've suggested, and many people on the thread have advanced, which is:

She doesn't look particularly masculine, but people see what they expect to see.

You can actually see a version of this effect on this thread itself. Without going back over it, I can remember someone who was quite convinced I'd told her DP and I were the same height and looked alike, several people who believed I'd posted that DP wears only men's clothes/mostly menswear, and one person who imagined I'd told them DP took a 'masculine role' in our social/domestic life.

I didn't actually say any of these things, but because the thread is about someone who's perceived to be masculine, they added that bit of information in, believing it to be true. They didn't see what was right in front of them.

So, I think that is what is happening here. What I think is more strange is the number of posters who seem really keen to insist DP must look more masculine than I believe, and that I'd be keen to deny this because - what? They can't believe butch women would be attractive?

@SenecaFallsRedux - YY, and I keep hoping! I remember (a bit dimly) the kerfuffle over women priests, and it was quite similar in a lot of ways - some people didn't believe it could possibly happen right up to the moment it did.

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle - not kidding but your post shocked me. I am the biggest pearl clutcher going but my goodness, darling!

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

My dad watched an episode of ru pauls drag race (my son and his partner love it as does my daughter)

It had to be explained to him a number of times that none of them were women…not one

Was it an episode from the most recent series? Because that has a female contestant in it!

I think OP you shouldn’t underestimate the possibility that your kid may be getting a bit a bad time with other kids in school. Child need to fit in and can be cruel to those who don’t particularly in areas where there is not much variety.

Obviously, this shouldn’t happen and society needs to adapt, but just as racism in small towns, it is shit to put up with.

Obviously, this shouldn’t happen and society needs to adapt, but just as racism in small towns, it is shit to put up with

I agree. But judging by the sheer number of posters here telling the OP she is unreasonable to expect better of grown adults and should just suck up casual lesbophobia, it won't be changing any time soon.

@C8H10N4O2

Obviously, this shouldn’t happen and society needs to adapt, but just as racism in small towns, it is shit to put up with

I agree. But judging by the sheer number of posters here telling the OP she is unreasonable to expect better of grown adults and should just suck up casual lesbophobia, it won't be changing any time soon.

Yes, as with the threads that specialise in finding elaborate reasons not to call your child anything other than Jack or Emma because they’ll get teased in the playground, it becomes very clear where such children are learning their attitudes from.