To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

You say it’s a really small school. Why not invite the class parents round to yours for Christmas drinks? Give them the chance to engage with you both fully, with their eyes and ears open and brains switched on, to see both your names on the invitation (if DP has an obviously female name).

I get what you are saying about her not being seen as male when alone, so I'd say you are right that expecting a male is part of it.

I doubt if it's the whole thing though, given the amount it seems to be happening. Even if she doesn't seem especially masculine to you, there may be something that is reading that way to people. She's a bit tall by the sound of it, though not as tall as most men, but something along those lines.

But in any case I don't think you can do much about it unless she wants to make a point of wearing more feminine clothes or something. Given that I doubt she does, I would just try and think about the best way to explain it simply to your daughter.

I also wouldn't worry about things like insisting one of you has to be the dad. It's really developmentally normal for children that age to make mistakes like that. They don't have enough background information, they don't know about exceptions to "rules" or have enough insight into language to know that it can be used in different ways. And they tend to over-generalize a lot. That's why so many at that age are real little rule-followers (or at least think others should be,) Over time their thinking gets a lot more sophisticated.

I was just going to suggest that, too.
Have a "do", invite plenty of people, and hopefully things will slot into place in peoples minds.

I am struggling to see how someone who's in the act of breastfeeding looks masculine.

I was at a wedding a few months ago and someone at the service was holding their baby. I presume(d) it was the mum holding her baby. That is how I saw the scene.

Now I'll add that I was the photographer at the wedding and was taking photos of the guests during this part of the service. My whole job is looking at scenes and capturing them. I also had a two month old breast-fed baby at home so very much aware of feeding babies!

I completely failed to notice that this poor women was breast feeding her tiny baby while having my camera pointed at her.

My point being that people just really don't notice things!

@OnwardsAndSideways1

My theory, OP, is that gender norms are more rigid now, weirdly, than they were when I was growing up. In the 70's and 80's quite a lot of girls had short hair, whereas it is far more uncommon. We also used to wear jeans and a sweatshirt. This wasn't 'masculine' at that time, but it now is perceived as if it is.

My daughter cut her hair into a short style and got mistaken for a boy several times, by teachers, and was also insulted walking home by a mum who told their small child who asked 'why is that boy wearing a skirt?' 'don't look at him, he's just doing it for attention'. My daughter is not a boy, nor trans, just a girl with short hair but it became very tiring for her and eventually grew her hair out to stop the ridiculousness.

It's a backwards step really for people to see jeans, a jumper and nice short hair as being a man basically, because of course lots of women like to look this way. It does seem that performing femininity overtly in a more stereotyped way is now associated with being female.

It sounds very annoying for you and your partner, and all I can suggest you do is to just keep reiterating that you are both female, and correct anyone, and just keep going. You can just say to your daughter how silly these people are, thinking only boys can have short hair, and I'm sure as she gets older you can work it out as you sound emotionally mature and supportive as a couple.

It's not deliberate always, but this constant stereotyping of women with short hair as men is very tiring and regressive.

Oh, gosh, that's horrible! I'm so sorry - what a nasty thing to say to a child, and hurtful whether she were a boy or a girl.

I think you're right about binaries hardening up, and it's a shame. I teach students who're mostly in their late teens/early 20s, and I have heard this from them too - they feel under quite a lot of pressure. It's a pity.

@HaveringWavering

You say it’s a really small school. Why not invite the class parents round to yours for Christmas drinks? Give them the chance to engage with you both fully, with their eyes and ears open and brains switched on, to see both your names on the invitation (if DP has an obviously female name).

That's a really nice idea! I must get up my courage and do that. Thanks!

(And YY, DP has a feminine name.)

@LobsterNapkin

I get what you are saying about her not being seen as male when alone, so I'd say you are right that expecting a male is part of it.

I doubt if it's the whole thing though, given the amount it seems to be happening. Even if she doesn't seem especially masculine to you, there may be something that is reading that way to people. She's a bit tall by the sound of it, though not as tall as most men, but something along those lines.

But in any case I don't think you can do much about it unless she wants to make a point of wearing more feminine clothes or something. Given that I doubt she does, I would just try and think about the best way to explain it simply to your daughter.

I also wouldn't worry about things like insisting one of you has to be the dad. It's really developmentally normal for children that age to make mistakes like that. They don't have enough background information, they don't know about exceptions to "rules" or have enough insight into language to know that it can be used in different ways. And they tend to over-generalize a lot. That's why so many at that age are real little rule-followers (or at least think others should be,) Over time their thinking gets a lot more sophisticated.

She's 5'8. That's below average height for men, so yes, not as tall as most men. I don't in the least want her to wear more feminine clothes. like how she looks - in fact, this is part of what is upsetting: the assumption that, if she's read as male, then of course she and I should definitely rethink how she dresses and looks, because naturally what should change is her, not stereotypes about gender.

I agree with you that it's developmentally normal for DD to talk about mums and dads, of course. But my issue isn't her mentioning it in an innocent, developmentally normal way - my issue is her hearing these conversations about her mum, and being confused or upset.

Off topic a bit but the methodist Church marries gay couples afaik.

I don't think people are doing it deliberately and you don't seem to think that either, so there's not much that can a done about it other than accepting you have to correct them when they get it wrong. People have their own stuff and worries and stresses and don't always have time to think and check and second guess things that are innate. It's one of those things that you have no control of so getting angry and/or upset is only going to hurt you so you might have to just adopt some acceptance with this one for your own sanity. You won't be able to change everyone else.

@Tailendofsummer

You can't have the wedding you want (in a C of E church) but you could have the marriage you want. Wouldn't that be better?

No - this is a religious issue. A wedding is a transitory celebration; you could have that anywhere. But a marriage is based (for me) on religion. A civil service would not be a marriage.

I find it interesting that a lot of people are saying she has to just put up with it and yet we’re constantly told how upsetting being misgendered is and women should never do it.

If your partner looks like a man then that’s the likely reason why people assume she is a man. If she looks like a woman and yet they thinks she a man…well that’s just very odd and makes no sense. I don’t think it’s that people just “assume” that all people with kids are heterosexual, as there are a lot more same sex parents now compared to years gone by.

My little girl has short curly hair and gets mistaken for a boy, one woman said something like, aren't you a good boy, and she said no I'm a girl, and the woman said are you sure
People are odd.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

OP I once happened to be standing next to a school parent and she was rabbiting on about herself then turned to me and asked “what does your husband do?” I responded with “oh I don’t have a husband” and she walked away from me. So at least you don’t have that sort of a twat to deal with (and yes, she out twatted herself on many occasions after this)

Ouch, what a fking bitch

I'm a straight woman who often wears men's clothes for comfort and practicality. I sometimes get 'misgendered.' I don't care. If I did care, I wouldn't dress in a way that made it inevitable.

I had a flamboyantly gay colleague, until one day he brought his wife to a work event. None of us could believe he wasn't gay.
Sometimes you just can't tell. People give off a different vibe to the reality.

I haven't read all of this thread but do you know what I think? 'Who gives a fk what anyone else thinks? ' seriously, you're a mum, you're doing an an amazing job, you love your partner and you both love your child, that's all that matters. Your child is very lucky to have you both

@PurpleOkapi

I'm a straight woman who often wears men's clothes for comfort and practicality. I sometimes get 'misgendered.' I don't care. If I did care, I wouldn't dress in a way that made it inevitable.

That's very much how DP feels - she does own more butch clothes, but she wouldn't wear them on the school run for the reasons you say. Sadly, it doesn't change anything.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I had a flamboyantly gay colleague, until one day he brought his wife to a work event. None of us could believe he wasn't gay. Sometimes you just can't tell. People give off a different vibe to the reality.

It's funny, but no one is ever confused about the sexuality issue with DP. With me, occasionally, but now with her.

@hugocat

I haven't read all of this thread but do you know what I think? 'Who gives a fk what anyone else thinks? ' seriously, you're a mum, you're doing an an amazing job, you love your partner and you both love your child, that's all that matters. Your child is very lucky to have you both

Thank you, that's very kind of you!

Do you live in Stepford?

It must be rather irritating to constantly be mis-sexed in the way your partner is, and for you too, but it seems very backward of your community to be unable to comprehend that you are a same-sex couple, especially if you've been there for a while.

In all honesty, I think the best thing you can do for yourselves is to laugh inwardly at people's inability to learn and rise above it. Unless they're being verbally abusive, of course, in which case that's a different matter entirely!

It's a shame your DD is under pressure to think she should have a mum and a dad - maybe you can give that book you were given to the class teacher, as a storytime book, so that the rest of the class can get to grips with her having 2 mums. And then they can take it home to their parents and get THEM used to the idea that your DD has 2 mums.

I find it very hard to deal with the idea that there are still some seriously out of touch communities who have never come across lesbian/gay couples with children!

As an alternative, and I have to be careful how I say this so I don't get deleted - with all the current trans trend going on, maybe people think they're doing the "right" thing by assuming your partner is a TM.
Sex stereotypes are, as you said, becoming more and more hardline - if you like dresses, pink and dolls, you MUST be a girl (regardless of sex) and if you like trousers, trains and engineering you MUST be a boy, regardless of sex. This is the downside for some same sex couples - an assumption being made that one must be aiming to be trans, to create a seemingly heteronormative couple.

You say she looks like a man at first glance, there's your answer. It doesn't sound like anyone is maliciously misgendering your dp. For example just by looking at the spelling of my name some people will completely mispronounce it. After I've corrected them they generally get it wrong again. If you get the chance correct them and they will soon stop.

@ThumbWitchesAbroad - we live in a small rural village, but we had a milder version of the same experience living in a city elsewhere. We have a large circle of lesbian mum friends, and this is a common experience, it's nothing remarkable at all, just something we'd like to deal with as well as we possibly can.

Generally won't*

@crymeapuddle

You say she looks like a man at first glance, there's your answer. It doesn't sound like anyone is maliciously misgendering your dp. For example just by looking at the spelling of my name some people will completely mispronounce it. After I've corrected them they generally get it wrong again. If you get the chance correct them and they will soon stop.

Where did I say she looks like a man at first glance?

I don't think I did. I think I said she looks like a woman, but people glance at us as a family and assume she's a man.

I have also said several times I'm sure it's not malicious.

Sadly, no, people don't soon stop for being corrected - I posted precisely because I was struggling with that fact.