To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

Your dd saying one of you must be the dad is probably just friends at school saying mummy and daddy.

There’s some good books available for children about having same sex parents. Maybe that might help your dd at least?

I did accidentally do this while out recently and was so embarrassed. The woman was lovely and said not to worry but I felt like such an awful person.

People are just weird. My DC are two years apart and people used to ask if they were twins - even with a 6 month old and a 2y 6 month old! I also had people asking if DD was a boy but she has a very delicate feminine face, always had lots of hair and wore stereotypical girls clothes (hand me downs, not particularly out of choice!). Basically, I wouldn't read too much into it.

@ErrolTheDragon

DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. Presumably your DD knows you're both women because you're female? Children of this age can pretty readily understand that grownups aren't infallible.

It's a shame you can't get married in your church - just a thought but I think the URC which is a pretty mainstream if small denomination does marry gay couples, might be worth considering/checking out.

That's a lovely thoughtful post - thank you! YY, we keep wondering. it's tricky. It's just that I'm cradle C of E, and we do really hope the Church will change. It would mean so much if it would. We go to church regularly and it's a big part of our lives, so it does feel really important. My lovely vicar would of course give us a blessing, but ... it isn't the same, and I am holding out for the sacrament.

Do you think it is possible that because you are feminine, people think you must have a male partner? Some people get very hung up on the idea of all lesbians being somewhat masculine presenting.

No, you'd think so, but it isn't. This is something that surprised us both - DP has a higher voice than I do (and my voice isn't unusually deep for a woman).

In that case then I can only agree with @2319inprogress and suggest these people have assumed your partner IDs as a man and they’re trying to be respectful. There’s no other explanation for why people would refer to a woman who looks like a woman and sounds like a woman, as a man.

the issue, though, is DD being bothered about it. She went through a stage of insisting one of us was 'the dad' and this really doesn't help.

Ah, that must be tough.

if your DD has only just started school, it's still early days and people will get it eventually.
I agree with PPs, frame this as 'haha people do make silly mistakes sometimes, but never mind, they don't mean to be unkind'
Is there a class whatsapp or similar where you can say 'Jane here, my partner Mary will be collecting DD today....' or whatever?

@BrilliantBetty I don’t know anybody who would intentionally take the leap of calling somebody they actively know to be a woman a man (and assume they are a trans man) just because they wear trousers/shirts and have short hair. I know lots of women who dress like this and nobody things they are trans men!

Anyway, OP, my wife and I have a daughter (although not yet at school, still a baby) and nobody has ever assumed that either of us is a man (although somebody once assumed I was my wife’s mum which was mortifying 😂).

On the other hand I have a friend who is very much a woman, but quite an androgynous build and wears what some people would consider quite male clothes (brogues, jeans, shirts). Her hair is quite short. She has been mistaken for a man a few times when people look at her briefly. So in my experience it is probably likely that your partner looks more stereotypically male than you realise.

I totally get why it annoys you though.

She's been mistaken for a man when she was breastfeeding DD in a cafe
Did people make the mistake when dp was pregnant ever?

@Helpstopthepain

Your dd saying one of you must be the dad is probably just friends at school saying mummy and daddy.

There’s some good books available for children about having same sex parents. Maybe that might help your dd at least?

I did accidentally do this while out recently and was so embarrassed. The woman was lovely and said not to worry but I felt like such an awful person.

Ooh, do you have book recommendations?! I'd love some. All we could find was utter crap like 'Heather Has Two Mummies' (which, of course, everyone gave us when DD was born), and which is just designed to educate the children of straight parents, rather than being useful for the children of lesbian mums.

But also - please don't feel like an awful person! I can about 99% guarantee that person won't have felt offended - we do know people do this out of habit and it happens. FWIW recently I had a job interview where I got chatting to one of the other interviewees - we both referred to each other's male partners and it turned out we were both lesbians - so embarrassing! What I am worrying about isn't individuals making mistakes, it's how I deal with the cumulative effect, so please don't feel bad.

@MichelleScarn

She's been mistaken for a man when she was breastfeeding DD in a cafe Did people make the mistake when dp was pregnant ever?

Yes. In fact, when she was on the labour ward, they assumed I was giving birth.

Sorry I x-posted
If she's on her own, people see she's a woman. to me that means people arent seeing her as male when you're in a family group they're just fitting you all into the categories they expect to see.
Still really odd though & I'm sorry it upsets her.

(I was about a size 12 at the time, btw, this wasn't a confusion based on them actually looking at us.)

when she was on the labour ward, they assumed I was giving birth.
Am sorry @SarahAndQuack but that is bloody awful of them!!

@Legomania

Do you think it is possible that because you are feminine, people think you must have a male partner? Some people get very hung up on the idea of all lesbians being somewhat masculine presenting.

Yes, that's exactly it.

@SarahAndQuack I’m off to bed but will send some links tomorrow.

This wasn’t anything to do with who she was with, she was alone and going into the ladies and (I’m so embarrassed) I said ‘the men’s is over there’ what an absolute knob. Like I said, luckily she was lovely!

OP I once happened to be standing next to a school parent and she was rabbiting on about herself then turned to me and asked “what does your husband do?” I responded with “oh I don’t have a husband” and she walked away from me. So at least you don’t have that sort of a twat to deal with (and yes, she out twatted herself on many occasions after this)

@Ellextra

the issue, though, is DD being bothered about it. She went through a stage of insisting one of us was 'the dad' and this really doesn't help.

Ah, that must be tough.

Oh, it's ok - though I appreciate the sympathy! The issue is more that it's hard to know how to explain it to her?

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

OP I once happened to be standing next to a school parent and she was rabbiting on about herself then turned to me and asked “what does your husband do?” I responded with “oh I don’t have a husband” and she walked away from me. So at least you don’t have that sort of a twat to deal with (and yes, she out twatted herself on many occasions after this)

Oh, yes, of course, that happens to us a lot.

There is no one way to look as a woman or a man. A man could also look exactly like your DP. It isn't an insult - when you cross stereotypical gender norms for masculine and feminine, it can be confusing.

It obviously isn't clear to others making a quick assessment based on external cues that she is a woman. They have no idea what her biology is and they are basing it on external cues telling them they see masculine and therefore man. Just like a short man dressed up with stereotypically female clothes, hair, and whatnot might easily be mistaken for a woman.

She could be a transman too for all they know if they see signs of both women and man and they maybe aren't sure which is the more dominant.

I dress very masculine but I have longer hair and large breasts - so while I sometimes get told I look like a man, no one actually mistakes me for a man because there are enough external cues.

It’s probably is due to appearance and use of partner not wife.
Also if she has a unisex appearance and you using unisex terms like partner they may not know her preference and not want to offend.
Also remember how little notice people actually pay. People are busy and caught up in own lives. My child has a missing limb you think that would be obvious but lots genuinely don’t notice!

As a gay woman sometimes peoples heads to odd gymnastics

My wife has been mistaken for both my son and my sister in the same day! We've also had "it must be nice to have such close friends" style comments when we were doing obviously couple stuff.

When I was with a femimine presenting partner people made the oddest comments

It's infuriating

Does she have an ambiguous name, like Jo or Charlie?

The brain doesn’t process all incoming information, a large percentage of it is just what the brain expects to see. This isn’t prejudice, it’s just neurology. It’s most likely your partner is a man, they superficially could pass as a man so a busy person on school run, vaguely aware of who you are, will just ‘see’ that your partner is male. It different to assuming that all women have male partners iyswim, it’s just that people don’t double check the genders of other parents on the school run.

Make it obvious, Refer to your FEMALE partner as often as possible with other parents. Talk to your kid honestly, in terms they can understand about the myriad of combinations of mummies and daddies in the real world verses the social expectation of having one mummy and one daddy.

@MichelleScarn

when she was on the labour ward, they assumed I was giving birth. Am sorry *@SarahAndQuack* but that is bloody awful of them!!

Well, DP likes to feel it's quite funny in retrospect! And thank goodness, because st the time I was too busy being worried to really be angry - DP had been induced and had been in a lot of pain, and they said she'd get dinner (she'd not eaten all day). Nothing happened so I went to enquire, and they assumed I was the mum in labour. DP thinks this is hilarious but I am still absolutely fucking furious that she didn't get a meal in 24 hours of labour, and then on the post-delivery ward they kicked up a stink about me getting her a meal because women aren't allowed to get food for their partners.