To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

I think some of the salaries you quote are optimistic. For example truck drivers weren't earnings much until recently, which is why there is a shortage.

Plus the mega salaries for a truck driver you read about in the papers are usually based on a 55 hour work week if you read the article carefully.

Plus, some of the physical jobs, you really wouldn't want to do when you hit your 50s.

@altiara

Where I work (home counties), our admin staff average 35k and they don’t take work home.

Yes, but I think your £35l is equivalent to £18-20k elsewhere. I know that when I lived in Cardiff, accommodation in London was twice the amount and wages only about a third higher.

@TractorAndHeadphones

I don’t understand why people are bringing accountants into this thread? Of course if you have the potential to get a middle class office job then you should do so.

OP is talking about the people who don’t. Instead of pushing them into uni only for them to graduate and find mediocre office jobs which won’t pay above £30K why not go into the trades.

Exactly.

Average salary for a UK graduate is £32k. Average salary for tradesman is £42k.

@name3958

I think the sort of money you mention is only achievable at the maximum working week .ie all the overtime long drives on for lorry drivers

Absolutely, and would meaning working all those hours every week, so it doesn't translate to a £50k a year job in reality or at least not favourably compared to most contracted jobs that will come with leave, guaranteed hours etc.

You're not allowed to average more than 48 hours per week over each three month period.

Drivers really are making this much. Admittedly most drivers don't do 9-5 and will work maybe 10.5 hour days. However, much of this can be sitting around waiting to get unloaded at a depot or trundling down the M5 so I found it less tiring that eight hours of meetings and drafting proposals.

Construction guys can easily make this money in an eight hour shift. Our grab drivers are on almost £200 a day and so are lots of 360 digger drivers.

Interestingly there has been an increase in women working as machine drivers on construction sites- some cynics say it’s cost cutting- cheaper than hiring a man to do the job. Maybe filling the skills gap? The loss of technical collages and apprenticeships has devalued trades and makes them less attractive to school aged students. And I’m not sure how many middle class kids are exposed or encouraged to join a trade by the schools themselves

@KrispyKremeDream

Average salary for a UK graduate is £32k. Average salary for tradesman is £42k.

The average graduate is employed, the average "tradesman" is self employed. The "cost" of self employment (unpaid holidays, no enhanced sick/mat pay, no redundancy, no notice, no pensions, pay your own expenses etc), is widely regarded as being about 25%, so that makes those two figures broadly equivalent.

@KrispyKremeDream 48 hours is still 10 hours more than what most full timers work, that's a day and a half more a week. Plus you've conveniently missed out everything else that was pointed out that the agency salaries often don't come with leave, decent pension, guaranteed hours etc. You're comparing apples with pears.

No one is saying you can't earn that much, but many have to work quite uncomfortably to do so, NOT all, but many. As I've said multiple times, if the average trucker was earning £50k, working standard full time hours in a sociable fashion, without being away from family, with guaranteed hours, leave and pension, we would not have a 6 figure shortage of them.

@Thevoiceofreason2021

Interestingly there has been an increase in women working as machine drivers on construction sites- some cynics say it’s cost cutting- cheaper than hiring a man to do the job. Maybe filling the skills gap? The loss of technical collages and apprenticeships has devalued trades and makes them less attractive to school aged students. And I’m not sure how many middle class kids are exposed or encouraged to join a trade by the schools themselves

Schools aren't remotely interested in "the trades". One of my best friends at school was easily a "grade A" student. Teachers were aghast when he took art, woodwork and metalwork. They were more aghast when they asked him why he wasn't attending the "uni application" sessions in the sixth form and he told them he was going to college to learn plumbing. This was in the 80's at a bog standard comp. He's had the last laugh, he's just retired (early) after 35 years as a sole trader/self employed plumber, living in a million pound house, with a couple of (owned not leased) BMWs in his drive. Yes, he's worked hard, but he's earned his money through top quality customer service - we had him to fit a new boiler and his pipework is, literally, like a work of art. He has brilliant attention to detail, cleans up after himself, turns up on time, etc - for all that, he charges a premium and people have been happy to pay to avoid the rip-off and bodge-up merchants!

[quote userisi]@KrispyKremeDream 48 hours is still 10 hours more than what most full timers work, that's a day and a half more a week. Plus you've conveniently missed out everything else that was pointed out that the agency salaries often don't come with leave, decent pension, guaranteed hours etc. You're comparing apples with pears.

No one is saying you can't earn that much, but many have to work quite uncomfortably to do so, NOT all, but many. As I've said multiple times, if the average trucker was earning £50k, working standard full time hours in a sociable fashion, without being away from family, with guaranteed hours, leave and pension, we would not have a 6 figure shortage of them.[/quote]
Whilst I agree with most of that, most "professionals" will be working a lot of unpaid overtime, certainly it's "normal" and expected in accountancy, law, etc, to work above and beyond your 9-5. Maybe administration and assistant staff will work fixed office hours, but higher levels will almost always be expected to do more outside core hours for no pay.

**Not just call centres. There is a new "breed" of accountancy practices which are known in the profession as "production line" firms, where clients' accounts and returns are dealt with by a succession of barely trained desk jockeys, no formal qualifications, etc., basically just like call centres with no "ownership" of the work, etc.

But, the same has happened with HMRC, where Brown caused mass redundancies of experienced tax inspectors when he closed local offices and centralised "customer service" in a small number of big call centres, staffed with people having had just a few weeks "training".

The "call centre" philosophy has spread to lots of other previously higher level professional jobs**

@Badbadbunny

You do realise that to become a chartered account, it tajes about 5 years with many exams. If you’re trying to suggest that’s the equivalent to an unskilled manual job, such as a factory worker, you’re delusional.

A chartered account is a very respected profession and you have to register with the professional body that you trained with.

It’s like comparing a health care assistant to a nurse or a nurse to a doctor. They do have overlaps but three is a lot more academically the further up you go.

There are different kinds of "truckers". Some, indeed will be earning £50k or more, but others will earn a lot less. The average "day" driver picking up a trailer at Tesco's warehouse mid morning and delivering to several shops during the day, finishing late afternoon back at the warehouse will be on pretty low wages. Whereas your petrol tanker driver doing overnight deliveries will be on top whack.

Whereas your petrol tanker driver doing overnight deliveries will be on top whack.

Depends on the company also, BP pays a lot more than Hoyer.

@TableFlowerss

**Not just call centres. There is a new "breed" of accountancy practices which are known in the profession as "production line" firms, where clients' accounts and returns are dealt with by a succession of barely trained desk jockeys, no formal qualifications, etc., basically just like call centres with no "ownership" of the work, etc.

But, the same has happened with HMRC, where Brown caused mass redundancies of experienced tax inspectors when he closed local offices and centralised "customer service" in a small number of big call centres, staffed with people having had just a few weeks "training".

The "call centre" philosophy has spread to lots of other previously higher level professional jobs**

@Badbadbunny

You do realise that to become a chartered account, it tajes about 5 years with many exams. If you’re trying to suggest that’s the equivalent to an unskilled manual job, such as a factory worker, you’re delusional.

A chartered account is a very respected profession and you have to register with the professional body that you trained with.

It’s like comparing a health care assistant to a nurse or a nurse to a doctor. They do have overlaps but three is a lot more academically the further up you go.

Considering I am a chartered accountant and have been for over 30 years, yes I do know!

I also know that literally ANYONE can call themselves an accountant and run or work in an accountancy practice. Many of the "production line" firms are exactly that. Some are owned and run by people who aren't qualified accountants and employ people who aren't qualified accountants. There's absolutely nothing to stop them doing that. HMRC will happily accept accounts/tax returns from unqualified accountants.

Try educating yourself. Do a google search for "accountants", then choose the bigger online firms, and you'll find very, very, few who say they're "chartered accountants", because most aren't! Compare that with a google search for local High Street accountants, and most will proudly include the words "chartered accountants" in their business name, letterheads, etc.

**Considering I am a chartered accountant and have been for over 30 years, yes I do know!

I also know that literally ANYONE can call themselves an accountant and run or work in an accountancy practice. Many of the "production line" firms are exactly that. Some are owned and run by people who aren't qualified accountants and employ people who aren't qualified accountants. There's absolutely nothing to stop them doing that. HMRC will happily accept accounts/tax returns from unqualified accountants.

Try educating yourself. Do a google search for "accountants", then choose the bigger online firms, and you'll find very, very, few who say they're "chartered accountants", because most aren't! Compare that with a google search for local High Street accountants, and most will proudly include the words "chartered accountants" in their business name, letterheads, etc**

I couldn’t care less if you’re chartered accountant.

You should be the one to point out that a chartered accountant is a respected profession and a protected title.

The way you’re taking it’s like you’re dissing your own profession, which I find bizarre. People work hard to get that title and calling it like factory work is ridiculous.

No one is saying you can't earn that much, but many have to work quite uncomfortably to do so, NOT all, but many. As I've said multiple times, if the average trucker was earning £50k, working standard full time hours in a sociable fashion, without being away from family, with guaranteed hours, leave and pension, we would not have a 6 figure shortage of them.

Well, 'comfortable' is ambiguous.

For me it's not having to put on a veneer like I did in an office. When I delivered mortar I could tell a customer "you've got 15 mins to sort it out or I'm leaving".

I absolutely hate having some ponce in a suit dictate what haircut, fashion, etc, I'm allowed. Want a big beard? Sorry it's not a professional look. Want to pierce your nose? Sorry, our more conservative clients might not like it. Fancy changing your hair colour? Better not be too 'out there'.

I feel like office jobs often turn people into 'office people' and they're not really my type. A lot of the blokes just seem a bit poncy IMO, like they could break a nail. End up in chinos and short sleeved shirts looking a bit like Marty from Ozark. Give me a well groomed lumberjack any day over some gimp in a suit.

And it's great knowing I could leave in a weeks time and probably have another similar job within days. This is very from office jobs where the CV is king and you have to jump through hoops to ensure you can get a good reference etc.

Obviously I don't have a big beard.

I work in an indoor "trade" (jewellery)
Most people in the trade are self employed and there isn't an awful lot of progression if you're employed, even though its a skilled job (actually making jewellery) There are still a lot of people working in their 60s and 70s.
Out of the people in our studio/workshop, over half are 60+
Its not as physical as a lot of more manual type jobs but you do need good eyesight and the ability to be dexterous. However I think the fact people are still working well into their 60s and 70s could be because its not great pay.

@KrispyKremeDream I think you have a chip on your shoulder that's clouding your ability to think rationally, you're painting an extremely narrow view of both truck driving and office work, it's much more nuanced than that and what you describe isn't my experience in an office at all.

And it's great knowing I could leave in a weeks time and probably have another similar job within days.

But wholeheartedly agree with this, I certainly feel a lot of security knowing (assuming healthy) DH can always walk straight into a job and being unemployment is extremely unlikely, but we know he wouldn't walk into a £50k job with all the security we want, and that's with him having ADR, crane etc etc so he's well qualified.

*unemployed!

Got a bit carried away in my last post. But it's a key point to me that non-office jobs can offer me a decent salary without sacrificing my principles, which I often felt I was in an office.

'Playing the game' is no doubt the best way to climb the ladder and make the most dough but those who don't want to conform would be wise to look at non-office jobs rather than just taking the view that they're 'not material person', which often actually means they don't want a typical office job IME.

My brother-in-law and father-in-law are both tradesmen and are raking in it. FIL works part time now (early 50s), owns 3 properties and has a brand new camper van. BIL also has new cars, goes on nice holidays etc and have more to cash to spend than me and husband who are office workers. They are both self employed and get paid cash-in-hand a lot so frustratingly don’t declare everything. Their young lads that labour for them are on really good money, given as cash at the end of the week.

I feel for my husband because we can’t just join in with their expensive holidays at the drop of a hat and I think he feels inadequate but I am not materialistic at all and prefer the shorter working hours, better working conditions and benefits such as pensions, flexible working and sick and holiday pay that our jobs have. I have the upmost respect for manual workers however and would be happy for my children to go into a trade.

I’m not suggesting that you should be an expert OP, but I don’t think you know much more about workplaces or the labour market than what you read In the daily mail, see on the news or glean from a quick browse on the job boards, and from your own personal experience.

MC people don’t just work in ‘office jobs’ they work in all sorts of industries and sectors. And there is manual work everywhere.

The factors that bring people to jobs, keep them there and encourage them to leave are many and varied. There’s a LOT more to it than the pay.

Also OP… there are some really shit office jobs, and some really amazing non-office jobs in the world!

@userisi

And it's great knowing I could leave in a weeks time and probably have another similar job within days.

But wholeheartedly agree with this, I certainly feel a lot of security knowing (assuming healthy) DH can always walk straight into a job and being unemployment is extremely unlikely, but we know he wouldn't walk into a £50k job with all the security we want, and that's with him having ADR, crane etc etc so he's well qualified.

Mobile cranes can pay pretty well. I know a guy in his 20s on £54k. But this is the type of crane that just lifts heavy objects as oposed to HIAB where they carry a load of bricks etc to deliver as well (also a decently paid job though).