To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

@KrispyKremeDream

I think too many lads go to school, become disengaged, and go off the rails before they even get a chance. Fat spliff while waiting for the school bus every morning because they've already checked out of education.

I think more emphasis could be made that you can do well even if not academic. It seems like being good at academia is the first objective and only if that fails do we look at plan b, if at all.

I don't know the solution, I just feel that the current system doesn't work for a lot of individuals. Even by 13-14yo I reckon you can usually tell who is going to be a uni candidate and who probs won't ever have high flying career.

We're right in the midst of this with DS.

He wants to be a car mechanic when he leaves school and is doing all the right things to get to that point. He's 16 and is spending half his school day studying automotive tech, which he loves. Works in a garage which he also loves. Actually quite enjoys regular school but would probably hate a job that involved just sitting on his bum. Has ADHD but is medicated which really helps.

He will probably be paid $30 per hour plus benefits by the age of 20 if he is taken on full time at the garage, which will very likely be offered.

This is all great but we did want him to be aware of the alternatives. I sit on my bum all day doing stuff I love working for myself and make about $50k an hour.

DH manages construction projects mostly from an office (sometimes on site but often in head office), is very senior in his company and makes well over $150 per hour plus benefits. He and he millionaire company owner and the president of sales all have big beards fwiw

His sister studies computer computer science at college and will probably earn over $35 plus benefits per hour not long after graduating. She has the potential to earn a very comfortable salary, but she'll also graduate with about $30k in debt to repay.

We're happy to fund DS through college, or for him to be a car mechanic, but we did want him to be aware of the alternatives. His pay won't go up a huge amount over his career, and he wouldn't be able to afford to buy a house in the town where he has grown up. But he loves what he does, which really matters, and there are lots of other towns to live in.

You sound happy with your job OP, and like it took you a fair bit of trying stuff out to get there. There's a lot to learn from that experience.

Much like other have said construction is paid well but the physical labour wrecks your body, you're outside in all weathers and you rarely have job security/know where you'll be expected to work from one year to the next.

I've worked for construction companies though as does my husband and the money can be exceptionally good. I remember being paid a pittance in the office and feeling quite bitter about my masters degree while I was arranging employment contracts for guys who had left school at 14 but were earning more money than I could dream of at that stage.

Well, I think that is not a very good example. Fully qualified engineers have to go to uni either straight away or doing an apprenticeship (I know because DP is one and his company offers apprenticeships)

I meant to reply to @PottererCrouch

@notanothertakeaway

Average salaries can be misleading. If Bill Gates came to live in my street, the average salary would increase, but mine would remain unchanged.

That depends on the calculation method. Most income/salary averages are based on median not mean, so one person with an exceptionally high/low income wouldn't make much difference to a median average.

@Increscendo

Well, I think that is not a very good example. Fully qualified engineers have to go to uni either straight away or doing an apprenticeship (I know because DP is one and his company offers apprenticeships)

Well that's another can of worms. Requiring a degree might be required today, but probably not for middle aged/older workers who joined the workplace a few decades ago before every man and his dog went to Uni. The employment market is very different today, so comparing how it used to be isn't really helpful. Whether so many trades/professions/vocations need to be degree jobs is a completely different subject.

It's so we can skive on Mumsnet of course.

I've always said that I want DS to learn a trade as well as have an education. Then at least he has options.

Recently I worked with a highly paid project manager who was also a plasterer and electrician on the side. He said it was great for when he needed either more money or was struggling to find PM contracts.

£180 a day to lay tarmac or £650 a day as a software engineer. Gee, it must be because I'm middle class.

Those "office jobs" pay more than tarmaccing. That's why. If you're in an office job on peanuts, aim higher.

@Idony

£180 a day to lay tarmac or £650 a day as a software engineer. Gee, it must be because I'm middle class.

Those "office jobs" pay more than tarmaccing. That's why. If you're in an office job on peanuts, aim higher.

Your average software engineer isn’t going to be earning that much - and not everyone can become a software engineer! Good Lord…

Know the industry well, do you?

Contractors' rates are insane. Even front-end roles are heading over £600 a day, and senior devops/database will be even higher.

It's not actually difficult to get into.

I work in FE and we have kids with ‘no prospects’ start often from PRUs or school refusal, do an entry level course and progress over 3 or 4 years to a L3 course in electrics or plumbing or bricklaying and they end up leaving on apprenticeships for a few months earning good money, they will often pop back in a year or so later and tell us they’re on 30 grand plus at 21 years old. It’s a great route for a hard worker who wants their own path in life and shouldn’t be looked down on.

@Rannva

Know the industry well, do you?

Contractors' rates are insane. Even front-end roles are heading over £600 a day, and senior devops/database will be even higher.

It's not actually difficult to get into.

‘Difficult to get into’ is subjective - compared to what? Law, medicine, accountancy (which all need training contracts)? Not everyone can program. I myself am self-taught without a degree in the field, have guided many others as well. The point is if you can become a software developer or {insert highly paid office job} here then this thread is irrelevant. Clearly even without the conditions the pay is much higher.

The thread is about those who wouldn’t get those jobs

Also to add the driven and motivated will always find their way - plenty of people in dead-end roles have changed careers. But if people don’t like it then I don’t see why these ‘manual’ jobs can’t be an option too.

Our neighbour drives diggers/caterpillar vehicles.
The thing is no job is forever so he is away from home most of the time working wherever the job is, with only a day off much of which he would spend getting to and from home if he decided to go home.
He is working in forests - most likely on is own in the middle of nowhere - I expect the money is good but not much fun imv.
I would think its' the same with building sites - are there enough building sites near you rhome to provide a stead job sot you're, home every night - answer vvv few.

There was mention on the Today programme the other day of the acute shortage of car mechanics. It sounded like someone, possibly in Gov, had realised that we are going to have thousands of electric cars on the road soon with no one with the knowledge to maintain them.

"The point is if you can become a software developer or {insert highly paid office job} here then this thread is irrelevant. Clearly even without the conditions the pay is much higher."

Exactly. Some of us are not good at IT and even among those who are, there are people working as systems admins. If it was that easy to be a highly paid programmer or software developer, they wouldn't be doing that, would they?

@Badbadbunny as far as I know, to be a chartered engineer university has always been a requirement. Professional engineers are not the ones that do the manual work, it’s the people that design the things that are being built, and therefore maths and physics are needed. But that was not my point anyway, just wanted to say that it was not a good example because one way or another they would need a degree.

"OP is talking about the people who don’t. Instead of pushing them into uni only for them to graduate and find mediocre office jobs which won’t pay above £30K why not go into the trades."

2 things. 1, it's not all about money. 2. Just because you don't have high earning potential in your office job doesn't mean you'll be good at skilled manual work. I was terrible at CDT, cooking and every practical subject at school. There's no way I'd be more successful as a plumber.

"Which is sort of true, for women specifically. I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of women I know who went to uni are in jobs earning at least £25-30k at the lower end, then there are the high earners who get way more. Those who didn't go to uni went into things like hairdressing/beauty/childcare/care/shop work."

Interesting that you don't know any female graduates that went into admin work paying much less than that.
I remember reading that people with degrees in arts subjects (many of those will presumably be women) don't earn any more than people with A levels, even though graduates in general do earn more.

"Even by 13-14yo I reckon you can usually tell who is going to be a uni candidate and who probs won't ever have high flying career."

I'm really not sure about that and I'm not in favour of making decisions like that at a young age. I wouldn't support a return of the grammar and secondary modern system, for example and children being sent to 'technical school' at a young age.

I did OK at my school (mixed ability comprehensive) and I don't think it was necessarily obvious to my teachers that I'd be a failure at work (in terms of being stuck at the absolute bottom all my life).

When you are north of 45 with aching joints and a bad back, laying tarmac is a non option. Then what do you do?

Physical labour is physical

"Working at a desk on a computer all day is usually the modern day version of working in a factory. It’s still working class."

I'd disagree to be honest. Blue collar v white collar. Admin support work like I do is somewhere in the grey area. The exception is call centres that really are like modern factories.

@Yusanaim

There was mention on the Today programme the other day of the acute shortage of car mechanics. It sounded like someone, possibly in Gov, had realised that we are going to have thousands of electric cars on the road soon with no one with the knowledge to maintain them.

That's been flagged up loads of times on fora like these, but, as usual, those in power have chosen to put their hands over their ears and chant la,la,la as they don't want to hear common sense - it's someone else's problem after all, as politicians only look until the next GE and don't give a toss about the longer term.

It's blindingly obvious that the whole motor industry will change massively over the next couple of decades, not just design/manufacture, but also maintenance, breakdown/recovery, petrol stations becoming obsolete, etc. The workforce currently throughout the industry will find themselves subject to mass redundancies and completely new skills/abilities are required for the new motoring era. But are colleges/employers changing their training schemes??

@Gwenhwyfar

"Working at a desk on a computer all day is usually the modern day version of working in a factory. It’s still working class."

I'd disagree to be honest. Blue collar v white collar. Admin support work like I do is somewhere in the grey area. The exception is call centres that really are like modern factories.

Not just call centres. There is a new "breed" of accountancy practices which are known in the profession as "production line" firms, where clients' accounts and returns are dealt with by a succession of barely trained desk jockeys, no formal qualifications, etc., basically just like call centres with no "ownership" of the work, etc.

But, the same has happened with HMRC, where Brown caused mass redundancies of experienced tax inspectors when he closed local offices and centralised "customer service" in a small number of big call centres, staffed with people having had just a few weeks "training".

The "call centre" philosophy has spread to lots of other previously higher level professional jobs.