To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

@KrispyKremeDream you cant be arsed because your right in there amongst the culture of judgement, stereotype and blame without real insight or self awareness.

Makes me wonder about those backstabbing women you had the displeasure of working with.

You sound like you’ve a massive chip on your shoulder op. That this is really about you and your disdain and envy or the middle classes. There’s an unpleasant undertone of inverted snobbery and class focus.

I think the sort of money you mention is only achievable at the maximum working week .ie all the overtime long drives on for lorry drivers .also having to drive in all weather's.a friend has recently qualified but is finding it difficult to get a job due to lack of experience! Many tarmac laying jobs are weather dependent too .also contracts so maybe some time without pay if no work needed.unless you are a manual worker or are married to one you are not really in a position to judge.

My friend's DH was made redundant and started on his own, in the power industry. Now works about 1 week in 4 earning 3 x what he did before, and has a few people working for him, great life/work balance.

I don’t understand why people are bringing accountants into this thread?
Of course if you have the potential to get a middle class office job then you should do so.

OP is talking about the people who don’t. Instead of pushing them into uni only for them to graduate and find mediocre office jobs which won’t pay above £30K why not go into the trades.

Also to add the trades may top out but so do many office jobs.

@TractorAndHeadphones

I don’t understand why people are bringing accountants into this thread? Of course if you have the potential to get a middle class office job then you should do so.

OP is talking about the people who don’t. Instead of pushing them into uni only for them to graduate and find mediocre office jobs which won’t pay above £30K why not go into the trades.

Accountants and lawyers are precisely the people I know who moved into the trades.

@dottiedodah

I think the sort of money you mention is only achievable at the maximum working week .ie all the overtime long drives on for lorry drivers .also having to drive in all weather's.a friend has recently qualified but is finding it difficult to get a job due to lack of experience! Many tarmac laying jobs are weather dependent too .also contracts so maybe some time without pay if no work needed.unless you are a manual worker or are married to one you are not really in a position to judge.

This. Employed tarmac layers are paid about £13 per hour. Self-employed ones have a fair number of days they cant work.

Manual labour is dangerous and (presumably) pretty wearing on the body. I also think you're comparing the top-end of these professions to the average for office roles.
I'm a qualified accountant (thought I don't actually work in accountancy anymore). I would have had to make some pretty bad decisions to be on £35k.
The day I qualified, my salary bumped up to 45k with the option of 55-60k to move to a finance function in industry. This is for a pretty low-responsibility, computer-based role and all that entails.

As PP mentioned, most trades I know have needed to retire relatively early or are working but it’s really taken it’s toll on their body even while still in 30s/40s. They can earn a lot at the time while working, but most have limited or no sickness/pension/other ‘corporate’ type benefits to fall back on, and if you’re SE then holiday/bad weather/covid/etc makes not working = no pay.

I think the sort of money you mention is only achievable at the maximum working week .ie all the overtime long drives on for lorry drivers

Absolutely, and would meaning working all those hours every week, so it doesn't translate to a £50k a year job in reality or at least not favourably compared to most contracted jobs that will come with leave, guaranteed hours etc.

Ive worked in financial institutions where we also had thor lookalikes I think a lot of dress codes have relaxed far more than you realise

My MC husband is an electrical engineer, he did go to uni but actually he would have benefitted from more practical skills from school and not being pushed into uni.

I actually think more practical skills such as carpentry and plastering etc could be offered from a younger age, but the academic side is still important. Ive worked with a lot of women who have partners who are self employed sparkies, builders, roofers etc and the vast majority of them end up doing their partners paperwork for them on top of their own full time jobs.

So these skills need to be offered such as basic bookeeping skills, practical tax return advice etc.

Also often around here farmers children drift through the last few years of school because they just want to get on with agricultural college but have to wait until 16 to do so. If you know you are going to be a farmer or a plasterer or a mechanic then starting vocational courses from say 14 would help keep those people more engaged in school. Alongside stem subjects, basic IT skills and the basics of being self employed and running a small to mid sized business

However I think the issue here is it needs to be done carefully. My husband got pushed into uni because he is MC, i know someone in finance who had to really fight to be taken seriously academically by his teachers because he was wc with non academic family members.

I think the british class system is one of the reasons why mc people end up in office work as well. My husband went to uni necause his mc parents would have been mortified at him being a mechanic for example because in their eyes thats a wc job. They hate that he calls himself a sparky sometimes instead of an electrical engineer in case shock horror someone thinks hes not uni educated. My sister sneers at his job sometimes, despite the fact she earns the same as him, because he drives a van and comes home physically dirty sometimes. So class attitudes can be a real issue

The other issue, as we are on mumsnet and predominantly female, these physical trade jobs are often not at hours that are suitable to work around childcare, not set up well for pregnant women etc. There are women breaking through these issues but lets not pretend that every women can jump in a cab and start driving lorries for a living, its more nuanced than that. What would be more appropriate would be if traditionally wc female jobs (carers, retail etc) were valued and paid as much as traditionally male wc jobs (sparky, builder) so that there could be a free flow of people from all backgrounds across jobs in both sectors

I think I get what the OP is trying to say, albeit in a convoluted way. I'm not sure I agree though. In my school days in the 90s/early 00s there was a huge push to get kids into uni. We were told any degree was better than no degree and that on average, graduates earn way more than non graduates.
Which is sort of true, for women specifically. I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of women I know who went to uni are in jobs earning at least £25-30k at the lower end, then there are the high earners who get way more. Those who didn't go to uni went into things like hairdressing/beauty/childcare/care/shop work.
All of those are low paying jobs averaging around £20k.
Sure, they COULD theoretically have gone into a trade or truck driving, but those industries are still dominated by men and seen as being for men. They don't seem that welcoming of women.
Personally, it would never have occurred to me to go into something like that. I'm a middle class woman of slight build, there's no way I'd fit into the laddish culture or even be up to the jobs you describe. Maybe if you're a tomboy kind of woman yes, but many aren't.
Add to that the fact that from the age of 12/13 I was relentlessly harassed on the street by white van/builder types, which was intimidating and embarrassing. No way would I have wanted to work alongside guys like that, and to potentially be the only female on site with a bunch of leery blokes (yes I know not ALL are like that, but this was my experience).
So yes, if you're a man you have more options for well paid work that don't involve getting a degree, but not so much for women. Pay gap statistics actually show that the gender pay gap is much larger between non graduates compared to graduates, which fits in with what I've observed in my circles. So on the whole, going to uni does seem to benefit most women.

@Lemonsyellow but presumably they’d already gotten the financial benefit of their highly paid jobs+degree and decided to do something more ‘fullfiling’? A bit like ex investment bankers working for charities with lots of money in the bank already.

OP isn’t talking about them but about people being pushed into university when it’s not for them - the thread title refers to MC but most of the posts refer to WC (white WC boys not going to uni in one post).

OP, having worked both in Oil and Gas and Construction, YANBU. Both of these industries are big where I live and there are plenty of late 20's/30 somethings with half million pound houses, driving fancy cars etc.

The majority of men I went to school with are now in Oil and Gas (going by FB) these men weren't 'academic' at school yet are doing really well for themselves in these different industries, started from the bottom in both, have worked their way up and are reaping the rewards.

These careers aren't pushed enough, if I had my time again I'd definitely have done an apprenticeship. Two women who I went to school with did Engineering apprenticeships with a couple of local oil and gas companies and are now fully qualified engineers, again earning very good money and living the good life.

I've always done office jobs (law) and a lot of additional studying too. As time goes on I am starting to realise that this was due to being very academic at school and having parents in office jobs, so it felt the natural thing to do, but actually I don't really like it and would far rather be doing something practical (although not hard manual labour). Sadly I can't think of anything practical which pays as well.

Imagine having a job that didn't involve endless reading and writing. I would love it.

An accountant just starting out may 'only' make £35k but can do the job for life, barring accidents.
The pay for manual labour may seem high but those are younger men's jobs. Higher pay takes into account not only the fact they are physically hard work, but that most men wont be able to do them for life and won't have a desk job waiting for them.

Everyone thinks this is a good idea and agrees that trades for example are lucrative and a great call, but nobody actually wants their children to do it.

One of the reasons people dont do as you suggest OP is because I think we have become physically lazy as a society (I include myself in that!). We are so used to ordering shit on our phones, using appliances for housework, driving places, using precut ingredients, etc etc, that most people would rather sit on their arse in a heated office for £20K less.

Its funny because these jobs you describe actually seem like they are probably beneficial in lots of ways too: not only can you earn a lot, but also, there seems to be quite a lot of camaraderie around them, and many of the guys who do these jobs seem to be in much better physical shape than their office counterparts.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@Lemonsyellow but presumably they’d already gotten the financial benefit of their highly paid jobs+degree and decided to do something more ‘fullfiling’? A bit like ex investment bankers working for charities with lots of money in the bank already.

OP isn’t talking about them but about people being pushed into university when it’s not for them - the thread title refers to MC but most of the posts refer to WC (white WC boys not going to uni in one post).[/quote]
No, on the contrary. They hated their corporate jobs and left very early on after a couple of years.

**Average salaries can be misleading. If Bill Gates came to live in my street, the average salary would increase, but mine would remain unchanged. Average accountant salary takea account of partners / people in London earning £££

Many accountants will earn a lot less than 84,000 I think**

@notanothertakeaway

You are right. I think 85k say the average but neither is 35. I would say somewhere between 50-60.

85 won’t be the average

@BreadPita

Manual labour is dangerous and (presumably) pretty wearing on the body. I also think you're comparing the top-end of these professions to the average for office roles. I'm a qualified accountant (thought I don't actually work in accountancy anymore). I would have had to make some pretty bad decisions to be on £35k. The day I qualified, my salary bumped up to 45k with the option of 55-60k to move to a finance function in industry. This is for a pretty low-responsibility, computer-based role and all that entails.

Totally agree with this

Money doesn't equal class. Middle class people prefer office jobs because they are "clean" and don't involve manual labour. The reason builders and lorry drivers get paid a fortune is because they are messy and hard work, no sane person would take them if they didn't pay well.

It's a good point. I know plumbers in our area make up to £80k as they're in high demand. And vocational options are clearly a great choice for some people.

Thinking about why we encourage our kids into office jobs, it's probably the higher ceiling for salaries and the lack of physical toll (although there's a mental toll).

Appreciate we live in a wealthy area so it's not representative, but most people we know in office type jobs earn £200-400k and some considerably more (at partner/senior director level in finance, law and investment banking).

@icedcoffees

I do a physical, outdoors job. One that's often listed on here as something anyone can do to earn some extra cash. Yet I see so many people try it and give up once they realise how relentless it can be.

I'm a dog walker. I run my own business. I earn around £100 a day working 4.5 hours a day on average, which is around £20 an hour, give or take. Lots of people think it's a nice, cushy job with great hours and good earnings.

And it is.

But I work in all weathers. I'm outside in 50mph winds, driving rain and mud up to my knees. My car takes a battering - it's constantly covered in a coating of mud, sand, grass and dog hair. My clothes get absolutely filthy. I come home covered in sweat, slobber, dog hair, mud, paw-prints and more.

Don't get me wrong, I love what I do but it's certainly much more physically demanding than sitting in a warm, dry office all day. Lots of people couldn't do what I do, day-in, day-out.

I would also not be able to control other peoples dogs and would worry about losing one or it getting into a scrap with another dog