To be so upset about the death of Jack Lis last night

[Aberteifi]

To feel so upset by the death of the poor 10 year old boy last night who was killed by a dog in Caerphilly.
My own son was mauled by a dog at 14 months old he has scars but he is here.
I remember the terror and the fear of it when it was happening and i can't help to feel it now knowing that is what that poor little boy went through last night.
His poor family must be going through the worst pain imaginable and i just feel so so sad for them.
I don't know why this case has really hit me but it has.

My mitigations won’t fail. They are too numerous to list here. I am always mindful of the size and strength of my dogs. (As I would be if it was a horse I was riding out.)
Should be ban cars too? They are dangerous.
I do wish there was a proper licensing scheme. People need to know their legal responsibilities. Too many dogs out roaming or owners letting them jump up or failing to pick up dog poo.

This is so so sad 😞 That list of dogs is awful too that there have been so many. I’m a huge dog lover and I do think 99% of the time a dog was not born aggressive but has been badly treated or became that way for some reason. I have a baby and two big dogs so stories like this really scare me. One of my dogs I would trust with literally anything but I still wouldn’t leave my baby alone with him, even for 2 seconds. No one knows all of the circumstances of this case but it sounds dreadfully sad that he seems to have been out a friends house, as you would be at that age. His mum had absolutely no way of stopping that from happening, she must be devastated 😞

The problem with these discussions is that they are rarely rational.

On the one hand you will get people who say that “I love my staff/Rottweiler and they would never hurt a fly, and well, staffs are called the nanny dog dontcha know…” and on the other side we have people who shriek that all dogs are potential killers and should all be banned without exception.

And while it’s easy to backtrack when faced with people having guide dogs for instance, if you genuinely believe that all dogs are potential killers, then you also believe that a blind person should not be entitled to a guide dog, it is, after all, a dog. No?

There is no doubt that if this dog was known to be aggressive it should have been destroyed a long time ago. And to that end people on the doghouse who recommend people rehome their aggressive dogs rather than have them destroyed need to do some thinking about what they’re potentially recommending, that a person should pass the responsibility for their aggressive dog to someone else. Any sensible people would have an aggressive dog destroyed without exception.

But it’s very clear that this wasn’t as straightforward as someone’s beloved family pet turning on a child. This dog clearly was aggressive. Aggressive enough that it was shot on sight by fire arms officers, so not even taken to the vets to be euthanised. So what needs to be thought of is how such a dog was never flagged up before, and why a family felt that it was appropriate to own such a dog in the first place.

I’m not paying any attention to “it says on twitter that….” In the news there is thus far very little information about the dog or the owners.But the hope should be that the owners are brought to justice.

But that most definitely does not mean that all dogs are killers and that nobody should be allowed to own one.

More people die in car crashes than through dog attacks, we don’t talk about banning those do we?

[quote Wolfiefan]@RainbowTomte yes. Idiot people.
I have two bloody giant dogs. They are well trained and I risk assess everything! In the wrong hands they could cause injury (bouncy giant pups). But I’m responsible. So my dogs pose zero threat.[/quote]
I have to agree with PP, it’s this mindset that is the real issue. Your dogs do pose a threat. All dogs do. Thinking otherwise is naive and what causes most of the incidents.
Yes, the threat might be almost negligible but because they are dogs, there will always be a threat. And until people understand that, there will always be deaths by dogs.

Also important to note that the majority of dogs on that list that have killed are big dogs. No doubt the fact they have actually killed the person and not just bitten them is partly down to their size and strength. There will be many many small dogs who have bitten but would be too small to manage to fatally injure someone. Ive found out of the dogs I’ve met/owned that large breeds are often the soft lumps and smaller dogs are the ones more likely to growl/bite (purely a generalization).

@UndertonesOfCake that is really good to know about the collie stare thank you! I dont know much about dog behaviour but the stare always makes me feel uneasy and I'd read that if a dog is still and staring it can be a sign of aggression. and with it being loose with no owner nearby I feel like I need to be extra cautious. I have turned back before to avoid passing it.

I wish that people couldn't just buy dogs on a whim, that there was a proper licensing scheme that incorporated mandatory training sessions at the start and then ongoing refresher trainer / professional assessment, that dogs have to be on a lead in public places except in designated areas. Too many people buy dogs without realising the work that has to go in and the cost associated with them.

As for guide dogs, jury's out on that one for me. I have friends who worked in the field, too many of the dogs aren't treated/ looked after properly by their owners and I'm not sure its fair on the dogs. Too many dogs don't make the guide dog grade and have to be rehired. I'm not sure it's the best way to give people more independence tbh

@RunningFromInsanity I have said that I’m aware of the size and strength of my dogs at all times. They won’t cause injury. Not because they’re not physically capable of it but because i make sure they are never in a position where they would/could do so.

[quote flippertyop]@authenticforgery I think that's very narrow minded [/quote]
Okay 🤷‍♀️ the statistics speak for themselves, which is why you can't create a counter argument. These dogs have no place in a civilised society.

There is no doubt that if this dog was known to be aggressive it should have been destroyed a long time ago. And to that end people on the doghouse who recommend people rehome their aggressive dogs rather than have them destroyed need to do some thinking about what they’re potentially recommending, that a person should pass the responsibility for their aggressive dog to someone else. Any sensible people would have an aggressive dog destroyed without exception.

I agree with your whole post @AlternativePerspective particularly this bit.
I think it should be more common for aggressive dogs to be killed. Like the poster above who has a dog in the village that has attacked several other dogs, and killed livestock. Why is that dog still alive? Why can the owner get away with just a court order to muzzle it, which it sounds like he freely ignores anyway?

That poor family. My heart is breaking for them, such an innocent thing to do, go round to a friends and it to end so tragically
These breeds are trained to bring large animals down, they shouldn't be household pets

@flippertyop

The thread is also about dogs and the inference that's some dogs are dangerous and belong to certain types of people.

Is this not correct though? Is it not the untrained, unsupervised pit bull type dogs owned by poorly educated people who think of a dog as a status symbol or form of protection rather than an animal which needs basics and more often more comprehensive needs met that that cause these accidents?

Just further reinforces my view that dogs are dangerous and have the potential to do this. I don’t care what counter argument dog lovers have. Dogs are dogs.

I'm a dog lover. I handle a dog professionally around children. I fully recognise that all dogs are dangerous in the wrong circumstances.

The dog is specially screened and selected for temperament and professionally trained for the role. He is still in the control of a trained dog handler whenever he is in the presence of a child because children and dogs are unpredictable. The children benefit immeasurably from his company every day they are with him.

We have several dogs in our household. A three year old child visited recently with relatives. The child was not allowed to be in a room with any of the dogs without adult supervision for even a second the whole time they were here. It isn't difficult.

Even if the dog involved in this incident was the most easy-going, placid creature in the world, it should never have been left alone with children.

Every dog should be treated as if it has a history of aggression. Every owner should be aware of the warning signs dogs give before they bite. They should also make sure they are around to see those signs whenever the dog is near a child.

Dogs are dangerous but so are ponies, cars, climbing lessons, grapes, skateboards and kettles. We need to manage risks, not banish them.

Too many people buy dogs without realising the work that has to go in and the cost associated with them

No responsible dog owner would argue with that. I, too, am pissed off with unruly dogs jumping all over my dog, who is walking, on command, to heel.

There are some ineffectual dog owners - much more noticeable in recent years! Not all dog owners are irresponsible though. I can’t imagine how frustrating it would be to walk an untrained, aggressive, reactive dog that has to be kept on a close lead. That’s not for me - that’s why I spend a great deal of time and effort in socialising and training my dogs - training is constant throughout the dogs life. I hate being lumped together with, “ All dogs should should be kept on lead at all times because all dogs kill”… plus “Dog owners don’t pick up their dogs mess”.

Rubbish! I have met with hundreds (if not thousands) of dog owners over the years. Most dog owners are responsible - the minority are not, granted. The ones who are not are not invited on dog walks ever again. Nobody wants to be around an untrained dog.

I still can’t believe the boys were left alone at home at just 10 years old and with a big dog new to the family. My heart breaks for the mum who lost her son and the poor boy who watch his friend get attack. It’s horrific.

As for guide dogs, jury's out on that one for me. I have friends who worked in the field, too many of the dogs aren't treated/ looked after properly by their owners and I'm not sure its fair on the dogs. Too many dogs don't make the guide dog grade and have to be rehired. I'm not sure it's the best way to give people more independence tbh well for starters you’re talking bullshit so you might want to go and educate yourself.

Guide dogs are withdrawn for numerous reasons. Sometimes because of distraction, sometimes because they just don’t have the drive to be a guide dog, sometimes because they’re spooked by something and are traumatised by it. I’ve known hundreds of guide dog owners all of whom have had multiple dogs, myself included, and not one that I know of has ever been rehomed because of aggression.

As for saying the dogs aren’t looked after properly, perhaps you’d like to provide the evidence for this? Oh, wait, there isn’t any. Of course there will be instances of owners who don’t look after dogs properly and in those cases the dogs will be removed.

And while you’re at it, perhaps you’d like to go wandering the streets in a blindfold and see how far you get. Yes, people do use white canes, but they are by no means comparable to a dog.

Until you’ve done all that you can fuck off with your ableist crap.

I still can’t believe the boys were left alone at home at just 10 years old and with a big dog new to the family. My heart breaks for the mum who lost her son and the poor boy who watch his friend get attack. It’s horrific

It is absolutely horrific how someone can leave a dog of unknown history with a 10 year old. I’m so sorry this happened to you Jack. There is no excuse. RIP lovely boy 😥 ❤️ Xx

As for guide dogs, jury's out on that one for me. I have friends who worked in the field, too many of the dogs aren't treated/ looked after properly by their owners and I'm not sure its fair on the dogs. Too many dogs don't make the guide dog grade and have to be rehired. I'm not sure it's the best way to give people more independence tbh

Utter bollocks! Not all potential guide dog puppies will make the grade. Only the best will make a guide dog. Surely that’s what should happen? A person who is blind should be able to count on being guided 100%. WTF are you on about? 🤷🏻‍♀️

My heart breaks for this child and his family whilst trying to compose a response to this thread.

Dogs are engrained in me, in my soul and my family. Like @Wolfiefan I struggle to find the words tonight.

The accusation that doghouse always tells people to rehome is incorrect. Only last week a thread was deleted when an op was posting about an extremely dangerous dog and a baby. The advice given by those of us I recognise (even via a name change) was to put the dog to sleep without hesitation.

Dogs are a privilege and a responsibility. The suggestion that a child should never be near one or never allowed into a home with one sits uneasily with me. Consider a sadder situation for that child, blindness or a mental health condition, a dog can bring assistance no human can.

As a farmers wife and a dog trainer, walker and behaviourist the issue on the most part are with the humans, but on some instances with the animal, as with any species.

I don't think this is a debate which can ever be resolved as @AlternativePerspective says when something as tragic as this has occurred.

From the details emerging this should never, ever have happened and that is without a doubt. The seller, the purchaser, the breeder, all need to be properly investigated.

May his poor soul rest and like you OP, I feel haunted by this news.

People always say that no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners etc.

But I've heard too many stories about the breed that was involved in the current story. Too many stories in the media (including one not long ago) and too many in real life.

I'm my opinion, they need to be banned.

I don’t have the words. I can’t stand to think of how a child of that age sustained such injuries that they died. It’s almost beyond belief.
So awful. That child, his friend and his family. I just can’t even begin to imagine.

TBH a huge problem lies with the ability to breed dogs. It’s far too easy to log on to pets for homes and find a dog in your local area from someone who thought it would be cute to get their dog pregnant so they could make a few grand selling the puppies.

The profiting from the sale of animals needs to be banned. That way you will shut down the puppy farming industry overnight and people will need to go to more lengths to get a puppy, and that should include being vetted if only the reputable breeders are still breeding.

Added to that all litters should be registered with a vet, and the details should be registered of where those puppies go. If something then happens then it can be traced back not only to the owner of the dog but the owner of the breeder, and as such all their other dogs can be flagged and their owners be either warned or if other dogs have a history then the breeder needs to be prohibited from breeding again from that particular dog.

The import of rescue dogs needs to be banned. Too many dogs coming in with serious behavioural problems to people who aren’t really equipped to deal with them. We have enough dogs over here, we don’t need to be importing more.

@SexyNeckbeard

If is is an American bully (I don't know if it is) they are abnormally large and powerful dogs - a designer breed created by crossing the pitbull with other bull breeds apparently to create a better family dog. An XL bully can weigh between 80 and 150 lbs. Yeah a chihuahua can bite but there's a world of difference in the damage that can be done.

That poor boy and his poor family

My friend has one and it makes me really nervous. The thing is enormous and not yet fully grown. It's a nice dog but jumps all over you trying to play. Having seen her struggle to get it off me when it's only playing, I don't take my 13 year old DS to the house anymore. She thinks the reason is the sulky teen stage, but really it's because I know that if the dog turned, no one would be strong enough to stop it attacking my child

I think the fundamental trouble is that as a society we tend to treat dogs as children/members of the family, and not as animals.

I say that as an animal lover, I have a dog and a cat. As I speak my dog is curled up on in a chair.
But he is a dog. He needs to be treated as a dog and not as a human.

Part of that is that we need to recognise that sometimes animals need to be put to sleep.

At the moment, if another dog attacks my dog, no-one cares. I cannot report to police/council/dog warden etc, no-one is interested. I know a local dog that has viciously attacked other dogs, while the owners stand back. How about we have a system that if the dog attacks another dog it is required to be muzzled in public, and then repeat incidents mean you lose your dog.

How about a system where a dangerous dog who has already been agressive and attacked cats and children is removed and put to sleep.

How about every dog must be licenced, properly etc.

There is no place in a crowded country like ours for guard dogs and attack dogs.

BuckarooWithBruceGrobelaar

That's so worrying, is she an experienced dog owner? I'm guessing no....