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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be so upset about the death of Jack Lis last night

347 replies

Aberteifi · 09/11/2021 17:36

To feel so upset by the death of the poor 10 year old boy last night who was killed by a dog in Caerphilly.
My own son was mauled by a dog at 14 months old he has scars but he is here.
I remember the terror and the fear of it when it was happening and i can't help to feel it now knowing that is what that poor little boy went through last night.
His poor family must be going through the worst pain imaginable and i just feel so so sad for them.
I don't know why this case has really hit me but it has.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Aberteifi · 09/11/2021 21:46

I did not start the thread because i hate dogs in fact i have a dog myself.
I am lucky that my son has no fear of dogs and actually begged us to get one.
I think no child should be left alone with a dog but sometimes that is not enough my son was attacked with several people in the room by a so called nanny dog that i even said wouldn't even hurt a fly.
I snapped at a nurse who even said but they are nanny dogs i will never forget the noise the dog made or the speed at which she went but the scariest thing of all is she never stopped coming back even after i got her off she continued trying to get at him.

OP posts:
pantsandpringles · 09/11/2021 21:53

Personally, I blame the humans at fault, 100%.

No matter what the dog breed, if people mess with lineage to get a "nice looking dog" rather than focus on temperment then the poor dogs will suffer. Like smaller breeds such as chihuahuas. They are very territorial, aggressive dogs but people don't care because they are tiny and pose no real threat to people.

The same with backyard breeders and bigger dogs like staffies, rotts, and pits. Except when you don't remove aggressive genes from the pool, it can make the poor things brain damaged, hostile and scared.

I have a Staffordshire bull terrier. He has been with me for ten years. He was a rescue but we have also got a 2 1/2 year old toddler. First thing we did when we brought her home after she was born was put her carseat down on the floor and introduced them.

He licked her cheek with the tip of his tongue, and jumped up and threw his paws around me and gave me a massive cuddle.

I trust him with my life. I don't however trust my daughter to have the understanding of his signals yet, so I don't leave them alone for long periods. I don't want him to be put in a position where he feels cornered and scared enough to snap.

People are the problem, not dogs. We need more legislation around pet ownership and care because animals and people are suffering.

SirHonkers · 09/11/2021 21:54

Was curious after reading one of the many thread's about banning fireworks from dog owners. I had a nosey to see what the hospital admissions were like for firework related injuries and this dreadful event brought to mind a comparison with dog related injuries.

digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/hospital-admitted-patient-care-activity/2019-20

In the external sources, code w39 is for firework related injuries and there were 154.

0 age 0
9 age 1-4
14 age 5-9
19 age 10-14

Code w54 is for dog related injuries and there were 8859.

37 age 0
603 age 1-4
538 age 5-9
392 age 10-14

For the record I don't light fireworks in my garden and I don't own a dog.

MrsDThomas · 09/11/2021 21:55

This has played on my mind since last night. Its devastating.

That brute of an animal must have been huge to do what he did.

ScaredOfDinosaurs · 09/11/2021 22:02

@tempchecked

So sad. But while I await flaming I think there are far far too many dogs around. You just never know if and when they might attack, bite, knock down, be aggressive and so on.

Of course some will say it's the owner's fault. It is not, dogs should not be allowed as pets anywhere in an urban setting, just allowed as working dogs i.e. sheepdogs, rat catchers etc. in the countryside. They know their place. A dog is inherently an attack animal with territory, and that instinct is merely trained out of them, but their instinct very often breaks through. As we have seen countless times from many different types of breeds.

Without exception they are potentially dangerous. Many are very fearful of them. I make no apologies for hoping that humans are valued more than animals in the potential dog aggression stakes.

I hope the young boy's family will find peace somehow.

I'm with you and I've got the scars to justify the point. Unprovoked attack from a "friendly" dog. I can understand keeping working dogs, but pets in the city? Nope nope nope. Doesn't work.
UndertonesOfCake · 09/11/2021 22:04

It should be the law with all dogs that they have to be trained professionally. Professionals would be able to weed out the aggressive/non trainable ones in an instant.

While I agree with the theory - the practicalities would be very difficult. Unfortunately, dog training is a totally unregulated industry - literally anyone can call themselves a trainer or behaviourist. This leads to some people who are incompetent, sometimes dangerously so, fooling members of the public. These charlatans can give out advice that will make the dog worse.

Reforming the sector so that trainers and behaviourists have to have a specific qualification (e.g. APDT for trainers, APBC / CCAB for behaviourists) would go a long way to curbing this.

But we're also in a situation where there's a significant shortage of suitably qualified trainers and behaviourists. There always has been, but it's far worse now that all the 'pandemic puppies' are in their adolescent phase, when problematic behaviours tend to emerge.

There's no such thing as an untrainable dog - they can all learn, and they all do, with correctly applied positive reinforcement techniques. The difficulty, as any dog trainer will tell you, is getting dog owners to understand what they're meant to be doing, do it correctly, and do it consistently.

The reasons why a dog becomes aggressive are many and varied - genetics, poor socialisation, a bad experience (e.g. being attacked by another dog) and so on - but not all of those will be evident at a young age.

I'd support a dog licencing scheme if it came with compulsory classes - perhaps 3 weekly sessions of theory before you get the dog, and 6 weeks of practical sessions once you've got the dog (one-to-one for rescue dogs with issues), with follow up support too. But staffing it with suitably qualified staff would be a serious concern.

@lochmaree
@UndertonesOfCake that is really good to know about the collie stare thank you! I dont know much about dog behaviour but the stare always makes me feel uneasy and I'd read that if a dog is still and staring it can be a sign of aggression. and with it being loose with no owner nearby I feel like I need to be extra cautious. I have turned back before to avoid passing it.

No problem Smile

Staring is one of those things that needs to be taken in a wider context. Collies are a bit different from others, due to the use that staring has in herding. Sometimes a dog will stare because they're really interested in something, or curious about it. On one occasion I was stood at a bus stop with DDog and a girl was eating KFC while talking on the phone. I hadn't given this any thought until the girl loudly proclaimed on the phone that "that dog's freaking me out man he's proper staring at me". Needless to say he was staring at the bucket of fried chicken, not her though he could murder a bargain bucket given half a chance Grin

This is a really good video that shows you the signs that a dog is feeling uncomfortable about something

This is a reasonable video about the signs a dog is happy (I struggled to find a really good video!)

I'll take a moment at this point to debunk the idea that a wagging tail always means a happy dog - more accurately it's a state of emotional arousal - and like a stare it needs to be taken in context. However, a dog who is wagging its tail so hard that the hindquarters are wagging too, and is showing relaxed body language, is a happy dog.

Obviously I don't know this dog, and haven't seen it in action, and erring on the side of caution is always safer. Have you spoken to others (preferably dog people) in the village to see what they think of it? Chances are it'll be "Oh, Nell the collie, I do worry she'll be hit by a car when she's out wandering, but she's a nice enough dog, even if she did nick my dog's ball once" or something to that effect.

Garfunkle · 09/11/2021 22:06

Personally, I blame the humans at fault, 100%

I agree 💯

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 09/11/2021 22:17

As for guide dogs, jury's out on that one for me. I have friends who worked in the field, too many of the dogs aren't treated/ looked after properly by their owners and I'm not sure its fair on the dogs. Too many dogs don't make the guide dog grade and have to be rehired. I'm not sure it's the best way to give people more independence tbh

What a load of bollocks! As previous posters have said there are a lot of reasons puppies don’t make the grade, the majority of which don’t mean they can’t be rehomed as pets.

I can’t believe you’d even consider taking away the independence given by a guide dog.

RantyAunty · 09/11/2021 22:24

How terrified that poor boy must have been.
And his friend who ran for help.

UndertonesOfCake · 09/11/2021 22:25

@SirHonkers

Was curious after reading one of the many thread's about banning fireworks from dog owners. I had a nosey to see what the hospital admissions were like for firework related injuries and this dreadful event brought to mind a comparison with dog related injuries.

digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/hospital-admitted-patient-care-activity/2019-20

In the external sources, code w39 is for firework related injuries and there were 154.

0 age 0
9 age 1-4
14 age 5-9
19 age 10-14

Code w54 is for dog related injuries and there were 8859.

37 age 0
603 age 1-4
538 age 5-9
392 age 10-14

For the record I don't light fireworks in my garden and I don't own a dog.

It's hardly surprising that there are more dog injuries than firework injuries, for the simple fact that we're around dogs a lot more than we are fireworks.

For most families, a dog will be around 24/7, 365 days of the year, whereas fireworks will be (at most) half an hour twice a year at Bonfire Night & New Years (or other cultural celebration such as Diwali).

If you made the following assumptions (some of which are huge and bizarre, but bear with me

  • dogs and fireworks are equally dangerous
  • the average child is in close proximity to fireworks for one hour per year
  • the average child is around a family dog for 1863 hours per year (28% of households with children have a dog, assume they're around the dog Monday-Friday 4pm-8am and all day on weekends so 128 hours per week / 6656 per year / multiply by 0.28 to account for proportion of dog owning families)

... then you'd expect there to be 1863 dog injuries for every 1 firework injury. According to your statistics above there's 57.52 dog injuries for every 1 firework injury.

... but to be honest I think the comparison between dogs and fireworks is just a bit odd as they're such completely different things.

rainbowunicorn · 09/11/2021 22:36

@LidlMiddleLover

People need to treat dogs with more respect and not expect saintly behavoit Don’t allow children to tease them and there would be less issues
What a fucking awful comment to make on a thread about a little boy who was killed by a dog yesterday. You should be bloody ashamed of yourself.
Spiceup · 09/11/2021 22:40

I had a boss who adopted a "failed" guide dog. It was a much loved and very well trained family pet, just for some reason didn't quite make the grade as a guide dog. There was a long waiting list of people wanting to take those dogs though, they were hardly abandoned if they couldn't work as guide dogs.

wolfstarling · 09/11/2021 22:47

People need to treat dogs with more respect and not expect saintly behavoit Don’t allow children to tease them and there would be less issues

You really are a piece of work.

wolfstarling · 09/11/2021 22:50

Poor poor boy. Another child killed unnecessarily. When will the Government protect our children.

Thoughts are with his family this evening and the other children involved. A sad day. Flowers

Garfunkle · 09/11/2021 22:57

I had a boss who adopted a "failed" guide dog. It was a much loved and very well trained family pet, just for some reason didn't quite make the grade as a guide dog. There was a long waiting list of people wanting to take those dogs though, they were hardly abandoned if they couldn't work as guide dogs

I’ve trained many guide and assistance dogs. I’ve also adopted those who didn’t quite make it. “Puppies who didn’t quite make the grade” are a far cry from dogs who have received no training whatsoever.

You are correct in saying that “failed assistance puppies have a waiting list for adoption”. Trained dogs are happy dogs and are always a pleasure to be around ❤️

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/11/2021 23:01

[quote RunningFromInsanity]**@BackBackBack* @StoneofDestiny*
I am a dog warden and we can’t do shit. Police don’t want to know, Councils won’t take private prosecutions forward.
I issue pointless warnings, do the most that I can and pray that the next death isn’t on my patch Sad

Agree tighter controls, leash laws, registration etc is needed.

(I do seize all loose dogs)[/quote]
Can we do anything to help you and keep people safe if we know of dangerous dogs that are lunging / trained to be aggressive etc? It feels so hopeless there are so many dogs that are horrific incidents waiting to happen. If there's anything the general public can do then it would be great to know. And thanks for what must be a really tough job at times.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/11/2021 23:06

If what's been said is true - that the family had only just got this dog - they may have known he was going around there but not that they'd got a new dog, or the tendencies of that dog.

Parents with a young child, and children visiting, getting a rehomed American pit bull are incredibly irresponsible. It is an unthinkably selfish choice of rehoming for the dog which is not a suitable fit for a family setting. I can't bear the thought of this little boy visiting his mate and this happening with his own parents powerless to have probably even known about the dog. This is why some breeds are banned and why I believe there should be a requirement of a license for dog ownership full stop.

BuckarooWithBruceGrobelaar · 09/11/2021 23:07

@Mythroatisstillsore Actually, she is, but experienced or not, for me it doesn't change the fact that the dog is too big and strong if anything did go amiss. It's always there in the back of my mind what could happen and that's why I don't take my son into that environment.

For context, this is the type she has and when it's full grown it will weigh the same as me (54kgish) www.pets4homes.co.uk/dog-breeds/american-bulldog/

BuckarooWithBruceGrobelaar · 09/11/2021 23:08

People need to treat dogs with more respect and not expect saintly behavoit Don’t allow children to tease them and there would be less issues

Revolting comment on a thread about a dead child

steppemum · 09/11/2021 23:09

If what's been said is true - that the family had only just got this dog - they may have known he was going around there but not that they'd got a new dog, or the tendencies of that dog.

and yet there are comments that this dog was known on the estate, had attacked cats and been seen being aggressive.

I am not blamng the poor lad, or his parents, who may not have known. But why was this dog in a family home?

UndertonesOfCake · 09/11/2021 23:11

@steppemum

If what's been said is true - that the family had only just got this dog - they may have known he was going around there but not that they'd got a new dog, or the tendencies of that dog.

and yet there are comments that this dog was known on the estate, had attacked cats and been seen being aggressive.

I am not blamng the poor lad, or his parents, who may not have known. But why was this dog in a family home?

As I said in a previous post....

If Twitter is to be believed they'd only had it a week, and it had already bitten someone when tied up outside a shop.

The old owners were utterly irresponsible for rehoming this dog to someone with kids, and the new owners appear to have been both irresponsible (in allowing a child visitor in this context) and out of their depth in dealing with such a dog.

An awful case all round. No doubt the people who owned this dog until last week will get off scot free.

OrangeJuiceAndNoodles · 09/11/2021 23:15

...but to be honest I think the comparison between dogs and fireworks is just a bit odd as they're such completely different things.

Totally, I couldn't understand that comparison at all.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/11/2021 23:16

People need to treat dogs with more respect and not expect saintly behavoit Don’t allow children to tease them and there would be less issues

What a fucking idiotic and tone deaf comment. Disgusting.

tsmainsqueeze · 09/11/2021 23:23

Yes we do know what type these owners are , may not be pc but its true , same sad story yet again.
I work in a vet practice , thankfully we don't see that many of these ' god knows what they are ' breeds ,but when we do their phenomenal strength is frightening .
And there is certainly a stereo type who own them , how these people choose to house a dog like this with chidren is beyond me.
Absolutely true that no dog should be trusted 100% and a child should never be left alone with a dog , but i must defend the Staffordshire bull terrier that someone earlier put in the same category , very rare we see an aggressive staffy .
That poor child , but due to lax rules to dog ownership in our country sadly it will happen again .

HereticFanjo · 09/11/2021 23:29

Oh God I think we've met the same twat owner whose dog apparently hated black beanies.