It is not people!! It's men!!

[Bonsaibreaker]

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

Men are not as, but are also, vulnerable to rape. And one could argue that its much more taboo a man being raped and those that are are less able to seek support from their friends and family and the police and that men are less aware of the risks and dangers because they're not taught about it like we are. I remember a serial rapist that was inviting men who's phones had died to go to his apartment to use his phone and offering them a drink. The idea of going to a strange man's apartment and accepting a drink, especially without my phone, is beyond me. But the felt safe, because they're men.

But as has been said, its mostly men doing the raping of both men and women. But we as a society shouldn't be allowing anyone to rape or abuse anyone . And we should be supporting everyone who has been raped.

We get it, NAMALT right?

Men as a sex class =/= any particular man as individual.

It really is that simple. Please take up any objections with the rulers of English grammar.

I might feel motivated to start 'NAMMMALTs' Not All Middle Class Mums Are Like That.

(I derided unknown numbers of anonymous posters on another thread the other day, as 'middle class mums meet Hell's Angels' for their jaw-droppingly selfish, rule-breaking, libertarian, exceptionalist ideas and actions. I am a middle class mum. I managed not to include or offend myself).

Bollocks. Got my own acronym wrong there didn't I.

But this 'all men are violent bastards' narrative is going to fix nothing at all.

I can't see anywhere where anyone has said that.

Most violent offenders are male is a statement of fact and not the same as all men are violent offenders.

Just out of interest are you contributing to discussions about male violence on any predominantly male forums? Or have you just dropped into to tell women how to discuss it without offending men.

When women start conversations about male violence we are talking about violent males which by definition excludes non violent males. The demand that every conversation must be prefaced with NAMALT is really fucking tiresome and only ever comes across as an attempt to shut discussion down, if that's your position you are part of the problem.

But this 'all men are violent bastards' narrative is going to fix nothing at all.

Who is saying that? Dh is not a violent bastard. Neither are any of my make friends.

That doesn’t change the fact the the overwhelmingly majority of violent bastards out there are men.

Most violent offenders are male is a statement of fact and not the same as all men are violent offenders.

I recognise that. But there are a number of posts above which talk about where responsibility lies for male violence. It seems to me that there are two possible answers. It is the responsibility of violent men, or it is the responsibility of all men.

It's obviously true to say that violent men are responsible for their own actions. So any other conversation about 'responsibility' is looking to shift blame onto people who are not violent, and are often victims.

Just out of interest are you contributing to discussions about male violence on any predominantly male forums? Or have you just dropped into to tell women how to discuss it without offending men.

This is the only forum I post on. I have called out misogyny and contributed to discussions about male violence on social media, in my own name. I have contributed thousands of pounds worth of pro bono work to organisations that help prevent VAWG (in a very specific context that would be outing). I have put myself in harm's way to protect women on a number of occasions, including intervening in a DV situation a few weeks ago, which resulted in me getting punched for my efforts.

When women start conversations about male violence we are talking about violent males which by definition excludes non violent males. The demand that every conversation must be prefaced with NAMALT is really fucking tiresome and only ever comes across as an attempt to shut discussion down, if that's your position you are part of the problem.

I completely understand that. I've been round here for years and get the NAMALT thing. it has been done to death and the succession of men who post NAMALT on here boils my piss (and I've helped to call them out). I was trying to make a specific point about how we ascribe responsibility for VAWG (following a not-terribly-well-thought-out OP, which itself casually talks about inflicting violence) and clearly haven't made that out as clearly as I'd've liked - in part because it's not 100% clear in my own head, and I apologise for that.

@thedancingbear

I think men are also very fearful of other men's violence and aggression. the difference is they think they have a chance of defending themselves, whereas women have the fear which is compounded by the fact that most of us are aware the average man is more muscular, has greater body has, is stronger and faster than us.

I'm a feller and I can honestly say it doesn't work like that. Violent arseholes (overwhelmingly men, of course) don't, on the whole, engage in fair fights.

Where men and boys I know have been attacked, it's universally the case that their attackers have been much older, or much younger, or they have been outnumbered, or the other person has had a weapon.

The fact that I am bigger and stronger than most men (and I'm a big guy, though a fair bit of it is lipid) may or may not mean that I'm less likely to be attacked, but it is really no guarantee that I can defend myself, and I can think of a few occasions (one just a few weeks ago) where I have been seriously scared for my safety.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. here goes:

I think men are also very fearful of other men's violence and aggression. the difference is the me who are doing the attacking think the men they are targeting have a chance of defending themselves.

The, I go on to say that if men were much smaller, less physically strong, etc etc they would be more likely to be attacked.

I COULD say then, in response to your comment:

The, I go on to say that if men were much smaller, less physically strong, etc etc they would be more likely to be attacked without extra force of a weapon or others in on the fight.

Fact is sir, women are more vulnerable because we are smaller, less strong, slower. So on this we are certainly agreed, it's nota fair fight.

This is the case. Ask any woman who has been held down by a man. A man with no weapon, no mates around, who hasn't even used a drug to sedate us. Held down, and almost nothing can be done.

I'd agree with you there @Jamdown123. On a class analysis, it's not a fair fight. I was as much trying to make the point that violent men are - ironically - by and large - cowards. And that being a feller isn't, of itself, a bulwark against violence because the situations in which we're able to defend ourselves are, almost by definition, those in which we are not likely to be attacked.

@thedancingbear

I'd agree with you there *@Jamdown123*. On a class analysis, it's not a fair fight. I was as much trying to make the point that violent men are - ironically - by and large - cowards. And that being a feller isn't, of itself, a bulwark against violence because the situations in which we're able to defend ourselves are, almost by definition, those in which we are not likely to be attacked.

And, in fact, it makes me wonder whether the oft-quoted stat that men are as likely/more likely to be victims of violence of is bollocks, as it just doesn't stand up to reason.

Thedancingbear can I ask, do you always drive or get a taxi if you are alone at night or in a strange or slightly rough area?
Did you make sure you only ever walk along well lit, main roads, even if it means adding time into your journey. Do you avoid places where groups of females are? Or makes are? Are there pubs for example where you would never, ever go in just from 'a bit feeling'? Do you make sure you son never, ever walks anywhere alone? Do you walk with your car keys between your fingers ready to use as a weapon?
I could go on but this is stuff all women consider doing. That is down to make violence nothing else. If you don't have to do all of this then you are putting yourself out there in a way that women just don't. Once again, if women walked around like men do they would be attacked far, far more.
It must be frustrating for decent men, I know dh gets annoyed when I slate men but seriously he has never had the shit that I have had to tolerate.

@Onlinedilema

Thedancingbear can I ask, do you always drive or get a taxi if you are alone at night or in a strange or slightly rough area? Did you make sure you only ever walk along well lit, main roads, even if it means adding time into your journey. Do you avoid places where groups of females are? Or makes are? Are there pubs for example where you would never, ever go in just from 'a bit feeling'? Do you make sure you son never, ever walks anywhere alone? Do you walk with your car keys between your fingers ready to use as a weapon? I could go on but this is stuff all women consider doing. That is down to make violence nothing else. If you don't have to do all of this then you are putting yourself out there in a way that women just don't. Once again, if women walked around like men do they would be attacked far, far more. It must be frustrating for decent men, I know dh gets annoyed when I slate men but seriously he has never had the shit that I have had to tolerate.

I can absolutely relate to some of this.

I grew up in a rough area and there were absolutely streets that you wouldn't walk down after dark. There are loads of pubs I wouldn't go in. I have been randomly attacked several times in my life.

My DS was relieved of his phone by some scumbags last summer. We managed to retrieve it but now I worry every time he leaves the house on his own, in part with the same scumbags in mind. We're in a 'naice' middle class town now fwiw.

Male violence has been a blight on many men's lives too. I recognise that women as a group have it worse. But there are people of both sexes on the same side.

Bearing in mind how the courts in England currently have instructions to record the gender the accused identifies with, rather than sex, it will shortly be nigh impossible to distinguish between men and women in the statistics.

Then we will be back to saying 'people'.

I think Priti Patel has ordered that the sex of offenders are recorded not their identified gender

Thankfully some sense at last after these past few years of utter nonsense

So if I am drugged and anally gang raped, I've bought it upon myself?

That's not my meaning.

It's not in dispute that violence is overwhelmingly committed by men. But this 'all men are violent bastards' narrative is going to fix nothing at all.

Saying that men are violent does not mean all men. I will keep repeating myself.

Men need to acknowledge that there is an issue and take active steps in tackling it. And it can't be done with men people like you screaming 'but men get raped too'

So by your logic, as a man, I'm partially responsible for my own arse rape. Cheers for that.

You keep saying the same thing over and over on comments that don't imply that at all and it's exhausting. Typical man on a forum which puts women's issues at the front making it all about him.

But I won't be tarred by the same fucking brush as these people. I can completely understand why women distrust men, why they may want to lash out at any man who comes into view. But it fixes nothing because it doesn't reflect the true character of male violence.

That's a lot of words for 'NOT ALL MEN 😭😭😭😭😭'

DickMabutt73962

Are you always this obtuse, he hasn’t said anything of the sort and by you doing minimising sexual violence!

*Doing so is

@HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend

*DickMabutt73962*

Are you always this obtuse, he hasn’t said anything of the sort and by you doing minimising sexual violence!

Me calling out NAMALT bullshit is minimising sexual violence? Ok hun 👍🏽

Can I please be a pedant here and state that only women can be raped? Legally rape is PIV, anything else is sexual assault.

@stillcrazyafterall

Can I please be a pedant here and state that only women can be raped? Legally rape is PIV, anything else is sexual assault.

This is not correct.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/1/crossheading/rape

Sorry that screen shot didn’t work at all.

This is what is detailed under the heading “rape”.

person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

**Today 15:22 DickMabutt73962

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend
DickMabutt73962

Are you always this obtuse, he hasn’t said anything of the sort and by you doing minimising sexual violence!

Me calling out NAMALT bullshit is minimising sexual violence? Ok hun 👍🏽*

Nothing wrong in calling out NAMALT in the correct context however they person you’ve aimed your bullshit at , was not saying that at all and it’s clear for all to see.

Let’s get some perspective, OK hun

Smart as fucking bait

Can I please be a pedant here and state that only women can be raped? Legally rape is PIV, anything else is sexual assault.

You'd think if you were going to 'be a pedant', you'd at least make sure your correction is correct.

1. Men and women can be raped.
2. A rapist must have a penis, which could be a man or a woman under UK law. If you're going to insist that only the legal definition of rape is valid, then you have to accept using the legal definition of woman too.

@stillcrazyafterall

Can I please be a pedant here and state that only women can be raped? Legally rape is PIV, anything else is sexual assault.

Just catching up but this was first post on screen.

It's nonsense.

In England Wales rape is consensual penetration with penis in mouth, vagina or anus.

Is that the second incorrect statement of 'fact' we've had on this thread?

Why do posters confidently write such tosh?

Stillcrazy.. why did you write that when it's nonsense. And the law is very very easily found in multiple easy to Google official sites AND is in really accessible plain language?