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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

It is not people!! It's men!!

161 replies

Bonsaibreaker · 31/10/2021 00:29

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 01:08

Got any links?

I mean if it's a thing it's impractical, tricky, and unnecessarily risky and complicated.

Like I say could well be wrong.

Whatever is going on it pales into comparison next to booze. In terms of a myriad of issues. Injury, violence, robbery, sex offences, anti social behaviour etc etc

Justilou1 · 31/10/2021 01:10

Sure they are… Never let statistics get in the way of a good story, Bro.

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 01:14

@moanymyrtle

spiking drinks is now done randomly so lots of drinks will get spiked in one club and they then watch and see who doesn’t have a group to look after them and choose the victim. So it’s inevitable with this tactic men and women will get spiked even if the girls are the target. In my 20’s we were told it would be someone targeting us specifically eg chatting us up, asking to buy us a drink so the tactics and scale has changed
This stuff is just scaremongering.

If a man (group of men?) want to carry out a sexual assault then there's way easier ways to do it then this!

Buy all the drugs
Smuggle them in
Drug loads of people randomly without being noticed
Hope that one of them that they've randomly drugged is separated from friends
Then... Get them out/ into a cab/ the toilets? etc without being noticed challenged etc

I mean come on.

If a man or group of men want to attack someone they can just grab a drunk person off the street. Or a sober one come to that...

NadiaVulvokov · 31/10/2021 01:22

Yes, I do think more women are raped than men. Yes, I think women are more physically vulnerable than women/

However, I think many, many more boys and men are sexually abused and raped than we realise.

For women’s here is still a lot of stigma to reporting sexual violence and very little likelihood of justice. For men I think the stigma etc around reporting is in something like the 1970s.

So I think this leads to massive under reporting, even informally, for men. They also are very, very unlikely to be able to talk about it to friends and get an empathetic response.

I still think more women than men are subject to sexual violence/

But I have to say that I think taking sexual violence towards me and boys more seriously is a key part in society effectively tackling sexual violence.

Firstly, it’s the right thing to do. Victims of sexual violence deserve empathy, support and justice. Full stop.

Secondly, the men’s and boys who have suffered sexual violence can be not just allies but partners in the work of making sure sexual violence is taken seriously.

Thirdly, if men and boys are better able to report sexual violence it will break down one of the key misconceptions that often makes men fearful about addressing sexual violence in society. And that is the misconception that men are more likely to be falsely accused of rape than be raped or sexually assaulted. Once men start realising they have more to fear from sexual predators than from being mistaken for a sexual predator there will be a big shift.

I also do often wonder to if some of the people who say “namalt” or “men are just as vulnerable to rape” are people who’s re trying to work their way round to disclosing. And for all victims I think the place to start is “I believe you”. I hey might be wording it clumsily, but let’s face it, men get very little education on how to talk about these things and disclosing is difficult for anyone.

I also think men and boys who suffer sexual violence and abuse are most likely to be abused by men. But this isn’t exclusively so. Of three men I have known who have suffered sexual abuse one was raped by another man. One was abused as a child by his aunt and her son. Another was groomed as a teenager by a much older woman.

Basically I think the sooner we get to a position where sexual violence is framed as “everyone vs the rapists” rather as a “women vs men” issue, the more chance of making real progress in eradicating sexual violence.

For what it’s worth, I do also think that sexually predatory men are the ones who create a culture of “you have to fear a false accusation of sexual misconduct” amongst other men. Seeding fear is a very effective technique to create a false sense of division and a false sense of unity/loyalty. We just need to give that trap no power.

So yes, women are more vulnerable than men to sexual violence. But it doesn’t mean they are immune.

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 01:28

Anyway.

Men and women can be vulnerable. Old/ young/ drunk/ bad luck to be in path of sexual predator.

The messages about common sense are the same for all. Stick with your mates, don't wander about the streets, don't get totally fucked etc etc.

It would be good to see this stuff pushed to all esp young people. I don't understand why it seems that the majority of it is assumed at young women, and with a very heavy focus on being sexually attacked by men you don't know on nights out.

What about all the (more common) incidents? Why aren't blokes targeted for warnings about nights out etc when they are at risk of violence?

RobertaFirmino · 31/10/2021 01:53

I think taking sexual violence towards me and boys more seriously is a key part in society effectively tackling sexual violence

Yes. Males do get raped. There's the case of Stephen Port, for example. Then there's the man who is said to be Britain's most prolific rapist - Reynhard Sinaga. He is believed to have raped at least 206 men.

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 01:55

Yes indeed. I mentioned the second upthread and the police response with the port case was appalling.

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 02:01

Thinking about it I think getting better informed about what's going on re this issue would be useful, for me at least.

I know of a couple of good charities that support men around sexual assault and rape.

For those posters who have raised male victims of sexual violence is there any chance you can share-

A chat site/ sites (like MN) with mainly men posting where this issue is discussed? Not victims talking obv but a general community iyswim. To get a feel of the type of things being discussed to help/ reduce etc. It's a different situation to VAWG and so what ordinary men think the best approaches are will help.

I think the situation re police attitude is massive plus under reporting and impact on victims. What sort of things can/ should be done.

LoveGrooveDanceParty · 31/10/2021 02:05

Everyone is vulnerable.

But it’s pretty much just one sex doing all the attacking / assaulting / raping / worse.

Why not focus on that?

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 02:17

On MN which is a female dominated website the focus when talking about sexual violence is on women and girls being attacked which is IMO perfectly reasonable.

Very often there are a few posters who are concerned about male victims and feel that focusing on female victims is not the right thing to do.

I have wondered for a while about the equivalent threads on male dominated websites.

I imagine those on the thread concerned about male victims would have a good idea about those conversations and I think personally for perspective it would be useful to read. As those who are passionate about helping male victims do on MN.

Full disclosure-

I have asked this question/ similar questions on other threads and irl when men started conversations about rape. I've never got any answers really.

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 02:19

It seems strange to me that people esp men who are keen to explain to women that it's not right to focus on MVAWG, never seem to know much about male victims.

I often recommend a couple of charities for male victims and suggest they look into supporting them. It's always ignored though.

pigcon1 · 31/10/2021 02:29

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b0b5pz

Hoping this link works. Make on male sexual violence is prevalent.

(I have not read the full feed).

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 02:30

Sorry what do you mean by feed?

pigcon1 · 31/10/2021 02:32

the posts above

NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 02:38

Ah ok sorry not used to that terminology. If you're new to MN (?) you might want to check the common acronyms guide v useful.

Men who are sexually attacked by men, there are issues for sure. They've been discussed upthread.

I know a couple good charities, what is your view on how to improve things. Is there any organising amongst men in general to act on this?

Did you only read the OP? (Opening post).

If so I'd be interested in why that link was your immediate response.

FOJN · 31/10/2021 04:55

your one of those those that believes In womens rights, as opposed to EQUAL rights.

The bench mark for equality is the rights and privileges enjoyed by straight, white, able bodied males. We would have equality if three times as many women were murdered but I don't think anyone would consider that progress. If women actually had enough power to stop violence against us do you seriously think we'd leave men to fend for themselves? I don't. Rather than stand shoulder to shoulder with us we have too many men acting as if women campaigning against male violence is somehow likely to disadvantage men and that is the conversation they choose to have rather than how we reduce male violence. You might think they'd care about young men getting stabbed but it seems shutting women up is a higher priority.

I think it was Greer who said equality for women was a profoundly conservative aim. I don't want equality, I want something better, men are free to to want better too. They still currently hold more power than women so anytime they want to get cracking with that I'd back them. I won't shut up about MVAW because men don't seem to care that much about addressing violence against themselves.

GCAcademic · 31/10/2021 05:12

@HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend

*Any decent man would be listening to women’s fears, thinking how they can make a difference and speaking out against women being harassed or worse when they see this happening*

The vast majority of men do, it’s a minority of men raping and assaulting women, not the majority,

I believe some perspective is required on here at times when discussion sexual violence.

Most men couldn’t give a shit. The female students at my university took part in the Girls Night In boycott of nightclubs last week. They pleaded with male students to take part, but they weren’t willing to give up a night out. I have dealt with tutees who were really upset about this. As well as feeling vulnerable to being spiked (and it has just been girls who have been victims of this at my university) they had to deal with the distressing realisation that their male peers - their friends and course mates - aren’t really that bothered about women being drugged and assaulted.
PeriChristmas · 31/10/2021 06:01

@Bonsaibreaker

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

YANBU KHITN!
Justilou1 · 31/10/2021 06:12

I don’t know if this makes me as angry or more angry than the blokes who immediately jump to the defence of “all the poor, innocent, men wrongly accused of rape.” 🤮🤮🤮

Jamallama · 31/10/2021 06:17

Amongst gay men, yes the statistics are high, particularly with drug rape.
It's not impossible for a woman to rape a man as what people forget is that you don't actually have to be in possession of a cock to use in a rape.
However mnetters like to argue about this topic until their heads explode.

Holly60 · 31/10/2021 06:29

I agree with you in that statistically it is more likely to happen to women.

I do however, understand, that a male victim of these kinds of attack is unlikely to think, ‘well that was unpleasant, but at least I’m a statistical anomaly, that makes me feel better at least’.

LessthanJurassicPark · 31/10/2021 06:39

I know men who think that the focus on females as victims of male violence is down to women more highly valued than men.

But I just think it’s down to women’s campaigning against it. Men are going to find it harder to campaign against it happening to themselves as a demographic because men are usually the perpetrators and they will have to a whole lot of soul searching about the toxicity of some areas of masculinity.

Which they simply don’t want to do.

Pixxie7 · 31/10/2021 06:42

I can’t believe some of the comments on this thread the statistics on both male rape and injections are unknown. A vast majority of men are decent human beings and it is the joining of forces that will help solve the problems not petty arguments between each other.

ElftonWednesday · 31/10/2021 06:43

Some men are vulnerable, yes. But to other men, not women.

Holly60 · 31/10/2021 06:45

@ElftonWednesday

Some men are vulnerable, yes. But to other men, not women.
I don’t really understand the relevance of this. Do we feel less sorry for the victims because they happen to be the same sex as the perpetrators?