It is not people!! It's men!!

[Bonsaibreaker]

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

body mass, sorry

The thing is though, the response to someone's fears or description of a traumatic experience is never, or should never be, oh it happens to me/us too. And even worse, well it's harder for me/us.

OP's friend should be empathising with her fears about potential male violence and being drugged. Instead he's being dismissive by making it about the male experience.

If a man was talking about fears of being beaten up or of sexual violence, I wouldn't be saying, oh well, so am I, I'd be talking to them about their feelings and experiences.

I think he's winding you up, OP, and it's not nice.

I think the way to deal with these comments (the first 2 on this thread are good ones) by turning it on it's head, so focussing on the perpetrators as opposed to the victims. A lot of men people take the above tack when they're trying to show that men aren't the problem, as they are victims too.

Men are the problem.

Men are murdered more? Men can also be raped? True, but who's doing en murdering and raping in the overwhelming majority of cases?

MEN.

Yes, men are the problem.

@Courtier

Both are raped, both are murdered, but it's rare that women do either

👆🏽bingo

Some poor bloke was interviewed the other day and he'd woken up after a night out, in hospital having been anally gang raped after being drugged in a nightclub.

instantly believed? police right onto it? did anyone ask what he was wearing?

I get it. Men are vulnerable too - so now they are getting date raped with drugs we all have to pay special attention to them as though we haven't been shouting about this since at least the 80s?

Yes. I have sympathy but I'll continue not to engage in discussing it as a competition and i will continue to focus most of my efforts on keeping women safe.

I think men are also very fearful of other men's violence and aggression. the difference is they think they have a chance of defending themselves, whereas women have the fear which is compounded by the fact that most of us are aware the average man is more muscular, has greater body has, is stronger and faster than us.

I'm a feller and I can honestly say it doesn't work like that. Violent arseholes (overwhelmingly men, of course) don't, on the whole, engage in fair fights.

Where men and boys I know have been attacked, it's universally the case that their attackers have been much older, or much younger, or they have been outnumbered, or the other person has had a weapon.

The fact that I am bigger and stronger than most men (and I'm a big guy, though a fair bit of it is lipid) may or may not mean that I'm less likely to be attacked, but it is really no guarantee that I can defend myself, and I can think of a few occasions (one just a few weeks ago) where I have been seriously scared for my safety.

Men probably are just an vulnerable to these sort of attacks but the perpetrators are basically 100% likely to be men. I think you are having the wrong argument tbh.

@DickMabutt73962

I think the way to deal with these comments (the first 2 on this thread are good ones) by turning it on it's head, so focussing on the perpetrators as opposed to the victims. A lot of men people take the above tack when they're trying to show that men aren't the problem, as they are victims too.

Men are the problem.

Men are murdered more? Men can also be raped? True, but who's doing en murdering and raping in the overwhelming majority of cases?

MEN.

Yes, men are the problem.

So if I am drugged and anally gang raped, I've bought it upon myself?

It's not in dispute that violence is overwhelmingly committed by men. But this 'all men are violent bastards' narrative is going to fix nothing at all.

@Bumblenums1234

Men probably are just an vulnerable to these sort of attacks but the perpetrators are basically 100% likely to be men. I think you are having the wrong argument tbh.

No-one is arguing otherwise, as far as I can see?

I think taking sexual violence towards me and boys more seriously is a key part in society effectively tackling sexual violence

the perception among a lot of women is one of utter eye rolling fury at this. Blimey, it's starting to impinge on men's enjoyment of their night out so now we must all pay attention.

My experience is that on IWD i tweet a lot of resources and statistics about VAWG and equality in various things (work, countries, political representation etc) and inevitably spend a lot of the day fending off "but what about da menz". I point out that on International Men's day i do the same thing but about men. And there are some observations:

1. women never do "what about the womenz"
2. women are as likely to be doing this as men
3. men who were vocal about da menz and "why isn't there a men's day" - sometimes i approach them in the run-up to Nov 19 and point out what the year's theme is and ask if they'll join us in raising awareness of resources for men's mental health etc. And except in one case, i have never ever had a positive reply

Women set up, after a lot of campaigning, women's refuges. Women have been protesting VAWG and inaction and victim blaming by the public, the press and the police, for YEARS. And what do we get? Wayne Fucking Couzens colleagues speaking up for him in court etc etc

So yes, violence against men is awful, concerning and not rare. But what are most men doing about it?Are they altering their ways? are they having a Boys Night In? are they asking women with experience in campaigning on such issues for tips and strategies?

No-one is arguing otherwise, as far as I can see?

I was reffering to the original OP, as in her and the guy were having the wrong argument. It's not about who is more vulnerable, it should be about who is responsible.

I have to say the only people I know that have been date raped (drugged) have both been men. I think it's very prevelant and not really talked about especially on the gay scene

@Bumblenums1234

No-one is arguing otherwise, as far as I can see?

I was reffering to the original OP, as in her and the guy were having the wrong argument. It's not about who is more vulnerable, it should be about who is responsible.

So again, if I am drugged and anally gang raped, I am responsible for that?

So this thread supports an act of violence against men. i would argue women can be pretty stupid and violent too (the statistics for women killing their own children are pretty horrific but slip out of Mumsnet discussions) but when they do it they are excused see the thread about not sending women to prison. So no it would be unreasonable to say most men are stupid (that is statistically the other way round if anything) and it is unreasonable to advocate violence against a protected class.

OMG @thedancingbear the perpetrator (almost always male) is responsible, the victim is the victim.

So again, if I am drugged and anally gang raped, I am responsible for that?

Ermmm almost certainly a man. I don't really understand what you mean? I said I think both sees are as vulnerable to male violence, sexual or otherwise. The OP states that she was arguing because she thinks women are more vulnerable to date rape/injections as men. I don't think they are and the vulnerability of the person does not change that it is men who are responsible.

@Bumblenums1234

So again, if I am drugged and anally gang raped, I am responsible for that?

Ermmm almost certainly a man. I don't really understand what you mean? I said I think both sees are as vulnerable to male violence, sexual or otherwise. The OP states that she was arguing because she thinks women are more vulnerable to date rape/injections as men. I don't think they are and the vulnerability of the person does not change that it is men who are responsible.

So by your logic, as a man, I'm partially responsible for my own arse rape. Cheers for that.

So by your logic, as a man, I'm partially responsible for my own arse rape. Cheers for that

I guess it would depend what colour pants you were wearing.

You are all men, the universal man, omnipotent and responsible for the actions of all men @thedancingbear ?

Think you've confused yourself with God there.

@Bumblenums1234

So by your logic, as a man, I'm partially responsible for my own arse rape. Cheers for that

I guess it would depend what colour pants you were wearing.

...is the reply of someone who has lost the argument.

Have a good day.

...is the reply of someone who has lost the argument

Have a good day

You too sweetheart

@lottiegarbanzo

You are all men, the universal man, omnipotent and responsible for the actions of all men *@thedancingbear* ?

Think you've confused yourself with God there.

No. Not at all. The opposite. The point is that I can't control these fucking arseholes. They're a threat to me, a threat to my partner, they're a threat to my kids. They're a threat to the poor woman who I saw being dragged down the street by her hair just a few weeks ago.

I am very keen to work against these scum, to make us all safer, to end this shit. I've done loads to try to do this, including compromising my own safety on a couple of occasions. I have done hours of pro bono work to help campaigns that protect vulnerable people against (predominantly) male violence.

But I won't be tarred by the same fucking brush as these people. I can completely understand why women distrust men, why they may want to lash out at any man who comes into view. But it fixes nothing because it doesn't reflect the true character of male violence.

Wow! Why is the mans getting so cross when the wimmins are throwing around the same logic used against us all the damn time? Does lil mans think that wimmins arses don’t get raped too? (Mine needed reconstructive surgery when I was drugged and raped at 14. No point reporting it, as the disproportionately extreme response to picking me up from hospital told me already how much support I’d be getting if I did.) Maybe his arse is sacred because of the sunshine, etc - therefore has more value than wimmins arseholes.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread.

None of the men who ever come out with this (again IME) care about men/ boys being victims of sex offences at all. They just enjoy winding women up about men raping us...

This has been my lifelong experience. A LOT of men actively enjoy winding women up about the threat of sexual violence 'out there', as a way of trying to confine us to the domestic sphere / keep us living in fear as way to distract us from thoughts of power / or to boost their own credibility as our 'protector'. Of course the type of man who likes to do that is usually more inclined to be a controller than a protector.

Decent men IME, recognise the real threats to women and feel no need either to inflate or diminish them. (Whether they'd accept any slight curtailment to their own freedom to achieve that, is another question).

@Justilou1

Wow! Why is the mans getting so cross when the wimmins are throwing around the same logic used against us all the damn time? Does lil mans think that wimmins arses don’t get raped too? (Mine needed reconstructive surgery when I was drugged and raped at 14. No point reporting it, as the disproportionately extreme response to picking me up from hospital told me already how much support I’d be getting if I did.) Maybe his arse is sacred because of the sunshine, etc - therefore has more value than wimmins arseholes.

Ah fair enough. As I've said, I understand your anger, and though you won't believe me, I'm genuinely sorry and angry that these things happened to you.

I'll keep doing my bit to try to keep people safe from male violence. You do you.