It is not people!! It's men!!

[Bonsaibreaker]

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

There's a difference between "vulnerable to" and "likely to be". Men are just as vulnerable to drink spiking than women in the sense that it's no harder to spike a man's drink than a woman's, but that doesn't mean they happen at the same rate.

@Jamallama

Amongst gay men, yes the statistics are high, particularly with drug rape. It's not impossible for a woman to rape a man as what people forget is that you don't actually have to be in possession of a cock to use in a rape. However mnetters like to argue about this topic until their heads explode.

In UK law, rape is defined as forced penetration with a penis. So, yes, you do have to be in possession of a cock to rape. Which women don’t have, despite the attempts to compel us to believe otherwise.

@Justilou1

I don’t know if this makes me as angry or more angry than the blokes who immediately jump to the defence of “all the poor, innocent, men wrongly accused of rape.” 🤮🤮🤮

Or what about all those poor blokes who's 'evil' wives just left them one day for 'no reason' and took 'the mans' house and all 'his' money

The fact is men and boys put themselves at risk. It is as simple as that as to why they get attacked. Not victim blaming, I'm stating fact.
I've see it on here many, many times. A male poster will post that they were attacked (by men) on a night out in X town. They then state they have been attacked several times in nights out in the same town, whilst alone, at night.
Imagine the increase in attacks on females if they behaved the same as males, and weren't socialised into altering their behaviour to avoid attack.
Again I'm not victim blaming but it absolutely is a fact that if men altered their behaviour like women feel obliged to do then they would not get attacked as much.
Would I walk past the same spot, alone in the dark, merely for pleasure, to get a drink after being attacked there many many times? No of course I wouldn't. Yet men do.
I remember the outrage that victims of the Hillsborough disaster were asked exactly how much alcohol they had consumed and what clothes they were wearing. Total outrage, yet being pissed would without doubt have effected a person's ability to react and handle any situation.
Female victims however, well that's a different story. Had a drink? Well it's your fault. Wearing clothing your attacker can rip? Well then it's your fault. A man being held accountants for his dilemma- oh no no no.
As for drugging men/women in night clubs a lot of it invigorating trafficking. Females, because the attackers don't care if it's a woman or child, are more at risk. They are targeted as victims they can abduct and traffic for sex. Mostly it's women as the demand for boys and men is not as high.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b0b5pz

You need to listen to Julia & Sofie.

@GCAcademic ok, assault by penetration if you want definition.

Most violent and sexual assault against women and girls goes unreported because, sadly, it’s often someone known the the victim.
It’s not all men but it’s overwhelming men commuting these crimes.

YANBU

This enrages me too

It basically reminds me of the whole "white lives matter too" Like saying yes women get raped but so do men

Ohhh f off

Im with you!

I do know men tend not to report these incidents as much so even though they may be less likely to be a victim, the numbers do not represent accurately.

Understanding the rape and sexual assault of boys and men reinforces what women’s rights campaigners have been saying about rape for decades. It’s about power not sex. Men that rape other men often don’t identify as gay. The act of raping another man is about power and control and often the outcome when a victim speaks out is that the victim is blamed, shamed and their sexuality is questioned. What the legal system and society in general protects is masculinity and men that fall short of this by been viewed as feminine or weak by being a victim of sexual assault are judged harshly. As are women. Being a rapist of men can result in a male offender boosting their sense of masculinity. The difference I feel is likelihood of this happening - the rape of women being much more likely due the misogyny in society and the fact that men as a whole are not controlled by the fear of rape from their childhood to their death. I don’t know any women that are not affected by rape in that they are consciously or subconsciously making decisions (what to wear, where to go, how to travel etc) to keep safe. I don’t know any women that haven’t thought of strategies should they be followed, in threatening situations etc. My male heterosexual partner could be a victim of rape tomorrow but he hasn’t lived his life til now with this hanging over him like a threat. That’s the difference.

Far far more women (and girls) are victims of male violence than men are either from men or women

Er, no. Women are more likely to be sexually assaulted. Men are more likely to be victims of all other kinds of violence apart from domestic violence.

*Men were more likely to be victims of violent crime than women (2% of men compared with 1.3% of women1, Appendix Table 1). This was true for all types of violence, with the exception of domestic violence, where women were more likely to be victims (0.3% of women and 0.1% of men, Nature of violent crime appendix tables). The year ending March 2020 CSEW showed that:

Stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.2% compared with 0.4% respectively)
0.7% of men and 0.5% of women experienced acquaintance violence*

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#groups-of-people-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-violent-crime

@Bonsaibreaker
as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

A passive aggressive way of implying all .

Important to know what the actual stats say and argue from there (see above), rather than just making shit up.

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.

Most men aren't stupid.

Men have been drugged, raped and murdered.

The vast majority of victims are women.

Almost 100% of perpetrators are men., so much so that it's reasonable to say 100%.

Men do almost all the murdering and raping. Most men are heterosexual, so most rape and sexual crimes are against women.

Let's also remember that most male sexual harassment and everything between that and rape are motivated by power, anger and a desire to exert control, not by sex (as in attraction). (Rather, normal male sexuality is not all about attraction but that's a diversion). They use anything from sexual language to their penis as a weapon. [Rape as a weapon of war is a large-scale, institutional example. Soldiers can be ordered to rape numerous women as a military attack and they do it].

Men attack and murder each other and that can include attacking strangers. But most murder of men is of violent men, who are already fighting, or violent criminals themselves, not of ordinary men.

@Hont1986

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.

Given that the police allow rapists to self-define their gender and that we know that there are obviously male rapists defining their gender as female, that number tells us very little.

@Onlinedilema
Again I'm not victim blaming but it absolutely is a fact that if men altered their behaviour like women feel obliged to do then they would not get attacked as much

I dispute that. As a teenager growing up in a random town, there were about a dozen occasions when either myself or my two/three friends were attacked walking down paths in broad daylight. Usually these were groups of young hooligans aged say 14-20, but the threat is already very real at that age as many teenagers have the strength of adults, with even less sense of criminal responsibility. Women are sometimes less likely to be targeted for these random acts of violence (not sexual assaults) as there is still something of a stigma about violence against girls/women. As a parent of both, I’d definitely be more worried about one being a victim of other violence and another victim of sexual assault. The stats back this up, while your take is pure speculation, and indeed doesn’t chime with the personal experiencesof many, many males who have been attacked in broad daylight.

@LoveGrooveDanceParty

Everyone is vulnerable.

But it’s pretty much just one sex doing all the attacking / assaulting / raping / worse.

Why not focus on that?

This. Of course men can be vulnerable, it doesn't matter that it happens less, the fact that it happens to men, means they too can be vulnerable.

I haven't read the whole thread but did see pp's point about sexual attacks as a way of humiliating other men.

Humiliation, vindictiveness and shadenfreude - pleasure taken in the suffering of others, including delight taken in causing or imagining that suffering - seem to me, from observation and experience, to be very male motivations.

I'm not saying no women has ever taken pleasure in another women having failed where she has succeeded, or in observing another's social humiliation. But vindictiveness and its active pursuit and fantasising about same, seems to be an automatic 'go to' for many, many men, in a way that it is not for most women.

In terms of drink spiking I would think that logistically it’s harder to date rape a man because 1. Higher dose needed 2. It would be harder to carry an incapacitated man to a private place. Statistically I think for rape, men are more likely to be perpetrators. Most men are heterosexual, so women are more likely to be at risk.

However, as people above say - I think men are more likely to be victims of random stranger assault as there is a taboo against beating women and I think in the case of gang violence perhaps women are not seen so much as a threat?

But in the end - what is the point in the discussion? Tougher sentences on people for violent AND sexual crime would be helpful to deter these acts.

@Namenic

In terms of drink spiking I would think that logistically it’s harder to date rape a man because 1. Higher dose needed 2. It would be harder to carry an incapacitated man to a private place. Statistically I think for rape, men are more likely to be perpetrators. Most men are heterosexual, so women are more likely to be at risk.

However, as people above say - I think men are more likely to be victims of random stranger assault as there is a taboo against beating women and I think in the case of gang violence perhaps women are not seen so much as a threat?

But in the end - what is the point in the discussion? Tougher sentences on people for violent AND sexual crime would be helpful to deter these acts.

You're missing the point. What we're trying to do here is create a strong narrative between the sexes, to build up barriers and push people apart.

Most decent people recognise the shared enemy here, which is the class of people who are violent arseholes - who are of course, mostly men.

Very few women are in this class, and a significant minority of men. They make the world fucking miserable for everyone else. Please can we show a little analytical rigour instead of posting crap that seeks to divide people who are basically on the same side. Posting 'all men are stupid' is wankerish and just escalates things.

CourtierBoth are raped, both are murdered, but it's rare that women do either

Totally agree. One of my DSISs male primary school friends was very sadly murdered. I think gay men are also very vulnerable.

Not really a question if you've already decided that 'most men are stupid'. Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

@Bonsaibreaker

Arguing with a male friend who feels men are just as vulnerable as women when it comes to date rape and the new injection of drugs.

I am so annoyed I have walked away. Hes a twat but I need a decent argument as most men are stupid. Not all men but most.

Yabu he's right men are as vulnerable as women.

YANBU kick him in the nuts.

I don't know the statistics, but I think the incidence of rape is likely to be very high among gay men. It is probably significant even among straight men, as in straight men are being raped by men (whether those men are gay or straight).

Men are truly the problem here.

I think men are also very fearful of other men's violence and aggression. the difference is they think they have a chance of defending themselves, whereas women have the fear which is compounded by the fact that most of us are aware the average man is more muscular, has greater body has, is stronger and faster than us.

So the key is 'vulnerability' here. What does that mean to your 'friend'? I would say whatever the numbers are for men being victim to men's violence it is far lower than it would be if the perpetrating men thought the victim would have little chance of fighting back. This is the situation when men attack women. So we are more 'vulnerable' in that sense - in that the predator deems us weaker by default.

I have a son and he's a baby now. But when he gets older I will tell him that I will love him no matter what, UNLESS that matter includes violence against women and children. If he does that he's lost me forever.