Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

Kelley dressed it up nicely to disguise it a bit, but sorry, yes, that's exactly what she meant. That is exactly what she believes. This is exactly what lesbians are being told.

There's no point in being so afraid of the evidence and reality of it that you just deny it and blame people for talking about it. If you don't like the reality of it, face it.

Do you agree with Kelley that homosexuality is transphobic and shouldn't be publicly acceptable?

Where is your line on this?

Should lesbian women who don't agree that anyone male can be a lesbian be allowed to say so?

Should they be allowed to go to Pride and be open and advertise their sexuality alongside those advertising and celebrating their furry fetish and puppy play fetish?

Should it be ok to exclude them violently and threateningly from Pride and threaten to punch them? Lynch them? Correctively rape them?

Is it ok for them to be homosexual as long as they do it behind closed doors, secretly and pretend on the outside that they're .... well. Heterosexual?

It's an article that is trying, and succeeding, in making transwomen as a group people to be afraid of.

It's really not.

Without the narrative, directly from trans identity politics, that a male is a woman if they say so, and that no one has the right to deny their chosen reality - even a lesbian who exclusively is attracted to biological females is not entitled to deny it - this situation could not exist . It is specific to transwomen. I'm sorry, I know you find that a really threatening thought, but it is.

The answer is not to run away from this, or say it's too contentious to talk about, because that means not facing up to the realities here.

Should homosexual women be forced to provide sexual access to male people in sex they do not enjoy?

We have had a very well respected academic and sports star TW openly state that lesbians should learn to cope with what is, in reality, straight sex. This suggests that enjoyment of sex or even equality of care between sexual partners comes second to recognising a transwoman's chosen identity.

That was not considered too scary or hateful to say.

The idea that it's transphobic for lesbians to exclude trasnwomen from their 'dating pool' based on the fact they are male bodied, is an idea that has been floating around for years, and has been perpetrated by several high profile trans rights activitists.

What's wrong with discussing that?

This is what lesbians are up against

Holy Fuck

MaxNormal
That person in the video is deranged and possibly very dangerous.
For those who still don't believe this is happening:

medium.com/@mirandayardley/rachel-mantrum-mckinnon-199b4dd5f66a

medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

It is not scaremongering...its happening and has happened. I believe those women who have told their stories. For shame if you don't.
Lesbian is a word used to describe same sex attracted females...transwomen can go get their own word, Lesbian is taken.

The argument goes beyond consent (consent should never be a debate)
Insisting lesbians are bigoted if they refuse a person who is male bodied is blatant homophobia

@Stompythedinosaur

YABU for saying you are confused, when you aren't. You just want to have another thread slagging off trans people.

It is not true that trans people are widely demanding non-consentual sex, it is just scaremongering.

Nobody has said anything like that.

But, out if interest, would it be OK if it had only happened to one woman? Or 10?

It does happen. Unless you too want to say that women, lesbians are lying about their experiences.

Is that it? Lesbians lie buy, if they are telling the truth, it isn't every transwomen and every lesbian, so shut up moaning about it?

It's 'scaremongering' when women talk about their experiences of being coerced into sex?

It is scaremongering when a national news organisation runs a whole article focusing on the behaviour of a few people from a minority group, and then people are led to believe that it is representative of that group, and that that group are people we should be afraid of.

@Ijustreallywantacat

I accept wholly that of course not all transpeople think this way however a very vocal, active and vicuous subgroup of their overall community obviously do and the lack of condemnation of it is .. almost as loud.

I see what you're saying, but where do you think that stonewall and other trans activists (as in people who are sincerely standing up for trans people) are going to put their energy - in to the small subset of trans people who do say controversial things, or articles like the BBC, which are tarnishing the reputation of transwomen as a whole? That's what transpeople deal with. That's what the marches and the campaigns are for. To fight against the rhetoric that transwomen are sexual predators. That's more important than policing what people call themselves or getting enraged about hypothetical scenarios.

Nancy Kelley and others like her are trying their best to say to you that they agree that coercing people in to sex is wrong. That's what she said. She has a different idea than you about what gender and sexuality is. Fair enough.

I just think that asking 'where is the condemnation?' Is unhelpful. You really want people to expend their energy in raking through twitter and finding inflammatory comments from transwomen, then saying 'stop that!'?

I don't even know what to say at this point. Misinformation, othering of people, and division are how all hateful ideologies start. It frightens me that so many are getting whipped up in to a frenzy about transwomen, who make up so many of my dear friends.

There’s no need to condemn every comment on social media. But why has no one condemned the very well known activists quoted in the article? Do your dear transwomen friends think lesbians who exclude them are transphobic?

@Stompythedinosaur

So is it just 'scaremongering' to discuss coercive practices perpetrated by males who identify as men? Is that OK? Or are females supposed to just sit down and shut up and put up with whatever comes their way?

Or is it only if the males identify as women that females have to stay quiet?

I am a strong feminist and have never suggested women have to "stay quiet" about anything. I do tire of the idea that I cannot be a feminist without also being an anti-trans bigot.

Of course woman should oppose anyone attempting rape. I just think it is fully disingenuous to suggest that a vulnerable sect of society are all rapists when that is clearly not the case. It is just a way to stir up hate.

Are you saying gc people are bigots?

Transwomen are males. Males are the direct opposite of a vulnerable community. They have the lowest rates of being murdered of any group in the uk. Low rates of suicide. Despite the fabricated stats that get wafted about with zero critical thinking. They are almost exclusively straight white middle class males, with all the privilege and power that goes along with that.

Stop manipulating.

It is scaremongering when a national news organisation runs a whole article focusing on the behaviour of a few people from a minority group, and then people are led to believe that it is representative of that group, and that that group are people we should be afraid of.

So because those women were coerced into stuff by males who identify as women, rather than males who identify as men, their stories shouldn't be told? They should just be silent?

It's like Rotherham and the Cologne attacks all over again. If coercive or violent behaviour comes from males who belong to certain groups, then it shouldn't be talked about and women should just put up with it.

Not all lesbian are attracted to all other women or even to all other lesbians.

Has anyone said otherwise?

The most male thing about some transwomen and trans allies isn't a physical organ, is it? It's a misogynistic attitude. Call it internalised if you like. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@Ijustreallywantacat

I accept wholly that of course not all transpeople think this way however a very vocal, active and vicuous subgroup of their overall community obviously do and the lack of condemnation of it is .. almost as loud.

I see what you're saying, but where do you think that stonewall and other trans activists (as in people who are sincerely standing up for trans people) are going to put their energy - in to the small subset of trans people who do say controversial things, or articles like the BBC, which are tarnishing the reputation of transwomen as a whole? That's what transpeople deal with. That's what the marches and the campaigns are for. To fight against the rhetoric that transwomen are sexual predators. That's more important than policing what people call themselves or getting enraged about hypothetical scenarios.

Nancy Kelley and others like her are trying their best to say to you that they agree that coercing people in to sex is wrong. That's what she said. She has a different idea than you about what gender and sexuality is. Fair enough.

I just think that asking 'where is the condemnation?' Is unhelpful. You really want people to expend their energy in raking through twitter and finding inflammatory comments from transwomen, then saying 'stop that!'?

I don't even know what to say at this point. Misinformation, othering of people, and division are how all hateful ideologies start. It frightens me that so many are getting whipped up in to a frenzy about transwomen, who make up so many of my dear friends.

Her having a different idea of sexuality and gender is not ok.

Sexuality is defined in law as same sex attracted. It’s a protected characteristic in the equality act.

It is not ok that she maliciously misrepresents that.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet said -

^Nancy Kelley, CEO of Stonewall, gave thus quote to the BBC:

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

So if you are a lesbian, and you exclude all transwomen from your dating pool completely on the basis that they are male, then Nancy Kelley, CEO of the biggest organisation for same sex attracted people in the UK, thinks that that is 'prejudice'.

There has been quite a lot of 'no one should be pressured into sex with anyone BUT .......' in the last few days on social media. There should be no 'but'.^

To be fair, in theory, her words are not mutually exclusive to also believing that excluding trans people for their sex is fine, excluding them for being transgender isn't. ie she could, in theory, beleive that trans women are men and lesbians are transphobic if they automatically exclude trans men (ie biological women).

But, of course, that's not the issue, lesbians, as far as I know, would not automatically exclude a female bodied trans person in the same way they would automatically exclude a man. The problem is this sick woman thinks that same sex attracted people should make exceptions for same gender people of the opposite sex. It's disgusting, obvs

@Ijustreallywantacat

It's 'scaremongering' when women talk about their experiences of being coerced into sex?

It is scaremongering when a national news organisation runs a whole article focusing on the behaviour of a few people from a minority group, and then people are led to believe that it is representative of that group, and that that group are people we should be afraid of.

A whole article? Did you even read it?

And must we wait until every lesbian in the country, the world, has been accosted by every transwomen, every man in the country, the world, before we can discuss the behaviour?

What other behaviour, criminal or otherwise, requires that level of 'proof' before it can be discussed?

Your issue is what? Women saying no!

AIBU to think that, as Stonewall CEO believes that it’s not ok for lesbians to only be attracted to the female sex, Stonewall is homophobic??

Huge amount of the trans-activist agenda looks homophobic to me.

The discomfort around all this is being forced to be open and honest about these beliefs. Doesn't that say something?

'If you are excluding a group from your sexuality, like fat people or black people or male people, then perhaps you should examine your societal prejudices'

is no different in what it means than 'being homosexual is a societal prejudice you should sort out as socially unacceptable'.

Which is again a nicer, dressed up way of saying 'homosexuality is transphobic'.

And the mumbles of 'of course NO ONE should be forced to have sex, but it's not very nice to say no to someone and make them feel their gender identity is valid' just basically means 'lesbians need to stop being homosexual for the sake of a male person's feelings'. It's just putting is nicely enough not to have to face and stand behind the reality of what you believe and are enabling to happen to other women.

I can well understand that it's very uncomfortable and upsetting to talk about and many women would rather that the whole thing was just too taboo to mention. But again that abandons other women to suffer because of the fear of facing the reality.

The right of women to be homosexual is not compatible with the right of a male to unconditional, total, unlimited acceptance of their gender identity.

We are talking about women being required - (or invited, in hints, very nicely and all dressed up in distancing language) being pressured to validate a male person's identity with their body.

This needs facing and addressing. And it's not a zero sum game, surely? There has to be room for both a male person to have and express their gender identity (which may be transwoman or NB or other things), and for a woman to be proudly homosexual, without this being a case of only one or the other can exist?

@Ijustreallywantacat read Nancy Kelley's words. That not wanting a relationship with someone who is trans (so a biological male, the opposite sex) is a prejudicial view for lesbians ie homosexual women / same SEX attracted women to hold. Same sex attraction has legal protection under the Equalities Act. How the fuck is it prejudiced????

@BigFatLiar

Enthusiastic consent is incredibly important. No one should be having sex with anyone who doesn't show clear signs of being 'up for it'.

They need a different term.
'Enthusiastic - I really want to
up for it - I'm ok with it

Outside the idea of sex...
Going for a meal...
Entusiastic - I'm really looking forward to a trip to Weatherspoons and would be disappointed if we didn't go
up for it - Sounds like a good idea but 'd be happy with beans on toast if it doesn't come off.

Enthusiasm relates to the person giving consent being 100% sure. Rather than mostly sure but with a few % of doubts.

It’s the term that fitted best into the acronym presumably. It doesn’t mean anyone has to be jumping up and down in enthusiasm, it’s just the term that worked best in FRIES.

That’s generally grasped just fine.

Not denying a proportion of 80 odd lesbians via a social media poll reported upsetting experiences. But to generalise that into an attack on all trans women is a further unpleasant turn in the hate campaign.

@DellaPorter

Not denying a proportion of 80 odd lesbians via a social media poll reported upsetting experiences. But to generalise that into an attack on all trans women is a further unpleasant turn in the hate campaign.

Who did that? Where is that said, written, posted?

I can wait...

So if a straight person with a male body transitions to be transwoman with a male body is she going to include penis in her dating choices?

It's not scaremongering to report on this, it's (finally) allowing women to be heard on this issue. About time.

Trans women are biologically men. Most of them have a penis. Of course lesbians do not want to have sex with them. To join lesbian dating sites and then abuse women who won't date them is pure misogynism, and needs to be called out.

I believe the sacred caste view comes from the belief that transwomen are all the same - sad, suffering, victims of prejudice, just wanting to get on with their lives.

The reality is that transwomen are now represented by, and widely distributed across all attributes of the male sex - nice, horrible, gay, straight, bisexual, safe, not safe, victims, perpetrators, etc etc. There is no “one type” of transwoman, any more than there’s one type of male.

So if some males are spiking drinks, it should be okay to talk about the threat they pose without blaming all males.

And if some male police officers are a danger to women, it should be okay to talk about it without blaming all male police officers.

And if some transwomen are coercing young lesbians into the idea that rejecting them is transphobic, it should be okay to talk about it without blaming all transwomen.

@DellaPorter

Not denying a proportion of 80 odd lesbians via a social media poll reported upsetting experiences. But to generalise that into an attack on all trans women is a further unpleasant turn in the hate campaign.

Do show us where it says that.

Do you infer from any given article about male violence against women that it's saying all men are violent?