Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

Some might suggest it is a very privileged position to be "more threatened" by allies, than by rapists.

@BloodinGutters

That’s exactly my point.

I too have been raped by men and unfortunately also sexually coherced by women, and while it’s absolutely unacceptable and shouldn’t ever happen, none of us would say that women as a whole are a threat because I have had non-consensual experiences with them. It doesn’t mean that my experiences don’t matter and aren’t valid and don’t bring forward genuine issues about rape/sexual assault amongst women or in the lesbian/queer community. But it would be a false association to say that women as a whole are a threat or lesbians/bisexual women (since they were my aggressors) are a threat to the rest of the female population.

I am not ever going to deny that some transwomen are predatory and some have and/or will harm women but is it a «transwomen are problematic and a threat» issue or is it «some specific individuals are a threat and highly problematic» issues and they just so happen to come in the shape of a transwoman.

My problem with this topic is that if a lesbian talked about sexual assaults within the community by other female (which happens more often than you might think), nobody would be out there branding that women are a threat or that lesbians/Bisexual women specifically as a whole are the issue and a threat to the rest of the community. It seems incredibly targeted to then jump from individual cases that statistically would only amount to a small percentage of the transwomen/lesbian population experiences (not that any amount isn’t already too many) to make a point that transwomen as a whole (and not specific individuals) are the issue.

It simply doesn’t sit right with me.

I think all lesbians who have experienced cohersion from a transwoman, or rape. Should absolutely absolutely testify and should be at the forefront of those talks. I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful, in keeping lesbians safe from cohersion.

Lesbians face many issues, and most issues lesbians tend to face often (and in my experience) rarely have to do with transwomen yet it seems the only issue people seem to want to fix. It would be nice if people had taken an interest in lesbian experiences and struggles before people started feeling threatened by transwomen, as it would feel much more genuine (to me).

@Linning

Being coerced into sex is called rape. Rape in the uk is a crime of forced penile penitration. Only males have a penis, so only men commit rape. Their gender identity matters not a fuck.

The only exception are if a woman is charged because she assisted a man to rape someone or in Scotland transmen (biological females) can now be prosecuted if they have a neo penis and use it to rape someone. Although to the best of my knowledge that has never been prosecuted, but I might be wrong.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

Please can you explain how the sentence lesbians are same sex attracted is in any way anti-trans?

Did I say that? I at no point said that nor even at all referenced to that sentence.

If you are going to challenge me at least challenge me on things I have said not things you think my post implies but doesn’t.

I am not ever going to deny that some transwomen are predatory and some have and/or will harm women but is it a «transwomen are problematic and a threat» issue or is it «some specific individuals are a threat and highly problematic» issues and they just so happen to come in the shape of a transwoman.

It's a

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee,

‘Women need protecting from dangerous narratives which leaves them the option of being true to themselves and risking significant violence (usually verbal), harassment and possibly losing their job or trying to internalise the narrative despite the fact that it does not fit for them and can have significant negative consequences. It is not reasonable to push the blame back to the victims, nor to suggest that the only people who need protecting are children.’

Speak for yourself there , not all women!

This victim narrative is infantilising intelligent adult women and is rolling feminism back-ooh-about 70 years.

Women need to be protected from criminals (as does everyone), not ideas, thanks.

[quote BloodinGutters]@Linning

Being coerced into sex is called rape. Rape in the uk is a crime of forced penile penitration. Only males have a penis, so only men commit rape. Their gender identity matters not a fuck.

The only exception are if a woman is charged because she assisted a man to rape someone or in Scotland transmen (biological females) can now be prosecuted if they have a neo penis and use it to rape someone. Although to the best of my knowledge that has never been prosecuted, but I might be wrong.[/quote]
Not sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying that women can’t sexually assault/coherce other women because UK laws disagree with that?

Not everybody here is from the UK or under British laws.

I personally disagree with the definition that rape can only be caused by a penis and find it an incredibly damaging belief for victims of other forced penetrative acts (who don’t get the justice they deserve as a result of not being perceived by the law as a rape victim) but of course I do know this is often the legal definition of rape in many jurisdictions.

Doesn’t change the fact that there are other form of sexual assaults and that women can also physically assault other women even if laws disagree with that.

Also many transwomen don’t have a penis anymore, does that mean they aren’t a threat to lesbians? And can’t sexually assault them/coherse them? And can’t rape people anymore? And so the only «threat» are pre -op transwomen?

Like what point are you trying to make? Laws are flawed. That’s why lesbians can’t get married in most countries and are persecuted in many more.

Also many transwomen don’t have a penis anymore,

I believe that it is estimated that over 90% of transitioned males in the UK still retain their penis.

Linning but that is exactly what this thread is about. All people are saying is lesbians have the right to same sex attraction and stonewall have turned round and said they need to think about their societal prejudices.

No one is saying all trans women are evil, no one says all men are evil either however that doesn't mean that situations don't arise where some transwomen behave badly, the same as some men behave badly, yes some women also behave badly but it's statistically at a lot lower a rate. Stonewall stating that lesbians need to reconsider their prejudices is wrong, no one needs to reconsider where their sexual boundaries lie.

As a lesbian…..
My lesbian friends…..

The 10 years odd I’ve spoken to lesbians on Twitter about this issue, read the many threads on fwr about it where some women are no doubt lesbians and the conversations I’ve had in rl, never have I met a lesbian who uses the term lesbian so frequently to assert their lesbianism.

Actually forgot this issue, never have I met a lesbian who says As a lesbian yadda yadda do dum, As a lesbian dum diddy do da, so frequently.

It’s an awesome word to type by the way @Linning. I’m so blessed to have met someone who likes typing it as much as me.

I also love saying vagina. Do you also love saying that word @Linning? I especially like saying it loudly and repeatedly and in public. Nothing beats the looks on people faces when I spill my coffee and yell VAGINA instead of oh fuck it.

I personally disagree with the definition that rape can only be caused by a penis and find it an incredibly damaging belief for victims of other forced penetrative acts (who don’t get the justice they deserve as a result of not being perceived by the law as a rape victim) but of course I do know this is often the legal definition of rape in many jurisdictions.

Eh? Penetration by anything other than a penis is called “assault by penetration”. You can get ‘justice’ for that.

@BeyondShrinks

Some might suggest it is a very privileged position to be "more threatened" by allies, than by rapists.

Yes. And to be threatened by PEOPLE TYPING IN CAPS.

Hello everyone. We've removed the voting option on this thread as we didn't consider this conducive to civil discussion. We've also had to delete several posts for breaking our guidelines. Please note that;

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

Thanks.

@BeyondShrinks

Some might suggest it is a very privileged position to be "more threatened" by allies, than by rapists.

I am a queer woman of color who was raped as kid by family members and later on as a teenager. I have been cohersed into sex by both men and women. I doubt I am privileged (though no doubt some people have had it worst!) but I have NEVER and WILL NEVER say I am more threatened by allies than by rapists.

Transwomen AREN’T rapists, how disgusting of you to replace the word transwomen by rapists (as if they all are) and think you are making a smart comeback. Rapists are rapists they are a threat to society and sorry to tell you but they come in all shapes or form. Rapists are a threat to me but transwomen (as a whole) aren’t. And yes people like you who make assumptions about others background and are quick to call an entire group rapists are a much bigger threat to me than transwomen as a whole. There is not much difference between people who think «all gays are the same» to people who think «all trans are rapists». People are individuals. Hold them accountable as individuals and stop limping entire groups into the same basket.

[quote Linning]@BloodinGutters

That’s exactly my point.

I too have been raped by men and unfortunately also sexually coherced by women, and while it’s absolutely unacceptable and shouldn’t ever happen, none of us would say that women as a whole are a threat because I have had non-consensual experiences with them. It doesn’t mean that my experiences don’t matter and aren’t valid and don’t bring forward genuine issues about rape/sexual assault amongst women or in the lesbian/queer community. But it would be a false association to say that women as a whole are a threat or lesbians/bisexual women (since they were my aggressors) are a threat to the rest of the female population.

I am not ever going to deny that some transwomen are predatory and some have and/or will harm women but is it a «transwomen are problematic and a threat» issue or is it «some specific individuals are a threat and highly problematic» issues and they just so happen to come in the shape of a transwoman.

My problem with this topic is that if a lesbian talked about sexual assaults within the community by other female (which happens more often than you might think), nobody would be out there branding that women are a threat or that lesbians/Bisexual women specifically as a whole are the issue and a threat to the rest of the community. It seems incredibly targeted to then jump from individual cases that statistically would only amount to a small percentage of the transwomen/lesbian population experiences (not that any amount isn’t already too many) to make a point that transwomen as a whole (and not specific individuals) are the issue.

It simply doesn’t sit right with me.

I think all lesbians who have experienced cohersion from a transwoman, or rape. Should absolutely absolutely testify and should be at the forefront of those talks. I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful, in keeping lesbians safe from cohersion.

Lesbians face many issues, and most issues lesbians tend to face often (and in my experience) rarely have to do with transwomen yet it seems the only issue people seem to want to fix. It would be nice if people had taken an interest in lesbian experiences and struggles before people started feeling threatened by transwomen, as it would feel much more genuine (to me).[/quote]
Nope the point I made was not the one you made.

Point must be exclusionary I guess.

Shame mumsnet have removed the voting option. At the time it was removed 94% of voters agreed with the OP.

@TatianaBis

I personally disagree with the definition that rape can only be caused by a penis and find it an incredibly damaging belief for victims of other forced penetrative acts (who don’t get the justice they deserve as a result of not being perceived by the law as a rape victim) but of course I do know this is often the legal definition of rape in many jurisdictions.

Eh? Penetration by anything other than a penis is called “assault by penetration”. You can get ‘justice’ for that.

Exactly.

But obfuscating terms is so much more fun to some.

@Naunet

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general

This is some gaslighting bullshit. MALES, commit 98% of all sex crimes, males of all races, religions, genders and statures. How dare you try to pretend women are just as likely to be predators, just as likely to be a sex offender? That’s an incredibly offensive, misogynistic thing to say. Shame on you.

Let's suppose the are 100 men in the world, and 100 women, and 1 of the men is a rapist. Do you really think it's a lot worse to label 100 innocent women as potential predators than to label 99 innocent men?

I too have been raped by men and unfortunately also sexually coherced by women, and while it’s absolutely unacceptable and shouldn’t ever happen, none of us would say that women as a whole are a threat because I have had non-consensual experiences with them.

But nobody is saying that transwomen en masse are a threat because they force lesbians to have sex with them. (It should go without saying that it's wrong for anyone to coerce someone into sex). What people are saying is that it is not ok for TW or allies, or indeed anyone, to say that lesbians must consider having sex with transwomen. And it's not ok to say they're transphobic if they don't.

@DameFanny

I don't believe the article did its due diligence by publishing a 'survey' run by an explicitly anti-trans organisation as if it were a proper data collection exercise, I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given and the lack of examples, I don't believe you should ignore the sexual assaults Lily Cade is alleged to have made, I don't believe we should assume transwomen are in it to hurt ciswomen.

I do believe this is the new section 28 moral panic bullshit. I was there in the 80s, when the papers were telling me lesbians would try to turn me in public loos, and that gay men were all pedophiles. I didn't believe that either.

You realise it's not newspapers telling you about what lesbians or gay men might do, but women (lesbian women) themselves telling you what has happened and is happening to them?

I quote the statement from Angela C. Wild here.

A few days ago @BBCNews contacted @GetTheLOutUK for a quote about the complaints received for exposing the sexual pressure placed on lesbians
The article is here but the quote not
Balanced debate BBC?
Here's the quote BBC didn't include
#istandwithlesbians

"We understand our research is under attack for not being "representative". We never claimed statistical generalisation with this work as the methodology makes clear, but to show that a phenomenon does indeed exist and needs to be investigated further. This is what larger LGBT organisations are funded to do yet they neglect their duty towards lesbians and demonised survivors instead.

Many studies done by Stonewall themselves used a much smaller sample yet claim statistical generalisation and are used to change legislation. Yet they do not receive such negative reception as our piece did.

We spoke to victims of the cotton ceiling. Rape is not an anecdote when it happens to you. These women are brave beyond measure to speak up especially in the current climate of silencing we live in. Their stories are important and need to be heard in the wider #metoo context and the lesbophobic culture promoted by most, if not all LGBT organisations.
We believe women. We believe lesbians."

Angela C. Wild
Get the L Out

I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful, in keeping lesbians safe from cohersion.

I’m really struggling to see anywhere that anyone has said all trans women are a threat.

What is it about discussions about rape that make people panic and claim all men [or transwomen in this case] are being labelled thus?

Do you really believe that is what people are saying? If so why.

@Linning

Read your own post. You literally said that you personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED by allies.

So yeah you said that. Why tell @BeyondShrinks you didn’t?

@lifeturnsonadime

Shame mumsnet have removed the voting option. At the time it was removed 94% of voters agreed with the OP.

This is a great concern really..

The question was a group to demand or expect sex from lesbians.

And 6% of people agreed with that statement.

Transwomen AREN’T rapists, how disgusting of you to replace the word transwomen by rapists (as if they all are) and think you are making a smart comeback. Rapists are rapists they are a threat to society and sorry to tell you but they come in all shapes or form.

That's a really nice strawman you're chasing, but no, that's not the issue.

The issue is the insistence that homosexual females should not refuse dating or sex with biological males if those males assert a woman gender identity. And that a lot of sexual harassment and abuse and coercion and pressure is exerted upon homosexual females to accept and go along with this.

And that this is a totally unacceptable thing.

Also, DameFanny, have you ever looked at the questionnaire results before this? I have.

In fact, I used to link to it on MN. No-one used to have a problem with it. www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

Here are some extracts from it.

As a lesbian I have heard many lesbians privately discuss being targeted by transactivists for being lesbians.
Those stories were hushed in confidence, suppressed, women justifiably fearing retaliation from perpetrators.
This silencing means that there are very few public stories of lesbians on the “cotton ceiling”, a point often advanced by transactivists to dismiss lesbians’ dissent. The aim of this study was to give silenced lesbians an opportunity to speak anonymously about their experience when faced with men who identify as transwomen, while
formally gathering the missing evidence.
The survey aimed to find whether there is a form of social pressure on lesbians to accept trans ideology within the LGBT community, and what form this may take. How does this affect their ability to meet other lesbians?
Are lesbian dating sites safe for lesbians? Is this social pressure influencing lesbians’ life and their sexual life? If lesbians are pressured online, could they also be pressured offline? Are lesbians experiencing any form of sexual violence from men who call themselves lesbians? If yes what form does this sexual violence take?

(Continues)

Research tools and method

The research was initially planned to be a series of interviews conducted with women who would be preselected after taking part in the questionnaire. After careful consideration a questionnaire was deemed more suitable in order to map an under-researched issue. A questionnaire enables the researcher to ask respondents a wider variety of questions in a short space of time (Sarantokos, 2012) and gives respondents the chance to complete the questionnaire in their own time (Curtis and Curtis, 2011).
The survey comprised of 30 questions about lesbians’ experience. It had sections relating to the following subjects: respondent identity, their experiences in LGBT groups and on lesbian dating sites, their experiences interacting with men who identify as transwomen as potential sexual partners. For the purpose of the survey, I used the queer terminology “transwomen” as advised by the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee believed that the survey should be “objective” but did not consider that the term “transwomen” is not an objective term and is far less widely accepted than they claimed, a point noted by a respondent who complained that the term was incorrect and misleading as “transwomen” are biologically male, therefore “not a subset of women”.
The survey was sent to women-only and lesbian-only groups on social media, as well as to individual lesbians in my own networks. As such the sample does not claim to be a representative sample of the lesbian community.
However, the research was to capture the points of view and stories of many, until now, silenced lesbians.

Findings

Within a few days, 80 women had responded to the survey, far more than originally planned. This rapid engagement demonstrates a keen interest by women who are affected by such issues and the recognition that there is a lack of work and visibility in this area. Several women left private notes, thanking me for the opportunity to speak up. Lesbians were eager to share their stories. The intention was to record lesbians’ experiences from the UK (48%), however the survey was also answered by women across the world 9, highlighting that the questions raised
concerns for lesbians in different parts of the western world. All age groups were represented. Due to the imposed time constraints of the research, I had to limit the number of questions relating to demographic information and also relating to the location e.g. rural/city provenance. Future research that will attempt to understand these views in more depth and detail will take more factors into considerations.

(Continues)

The majority of respondents reported being part of lesbian, queer or LGBT groups online (11%), offline (37%) or both (48%). 72% reported being part of strictly women-only groups (excluding “transwomen”).
Women were also part of groups which are mixed – including men and women (20%),
inclusive of all gender (21%),
women-only but including self-identifying women (20%)
and welcoming of “transwomen” (26%).

Women who were in groups that were not “women-only” reported “feeling silenced”, “intimidated”, “unable to speak freely”, “uncomfortable” with the group policy and wishing the group was for women only but “dare not say it”. Several reported how “transwomen derail” and monopolise the discussion to be solely about their issues while shutting down discussion about women’s or lesbians’ issues by calling it “transphobic”. Group dynamics are described as “toxic”. Several women explain how “transwomen are behaving just like men”.

Lesbians constantly report being told their sexuality is “wrong” if they openly state they are solely attracted to women.

Women reported “threats”, “intimidations” and “abuse”, by “transwomen” and allies.
Several respondents explained they understand and respect the need for “transwomen” to meet exclusively amongst themselves but cannot understand the lack of reciprocity accorded to women and lesbians by the trans community.

50% of women reported being excluded from their LGBT group(s).

The reason for their removal was made clear: questioning any aspect of the queer doctrine results in women be-
ing labelled “transphobic”, resulting in a ban. Respondents were banned for sharing articles from feminists that their group disapproved of, or for stating biological facts about sex and anatomy such as: “just females have periods”.
Several respondents have left groups themselves due to intimidation or before being pushed out.
Women who are still in LGBT groups have not been excluded because they report “not being open with their views".

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.
While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.