Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

This whole debacle has white men wanting to be confirmed as women and white women lashing out back. All other women who otherwise those parties couldn't find a single shit to give about are caught in the middle.

Oh just to be clear - all the stats on rape make it beyond bloody obvious that being black doesn’t make a man more or less likely to be a rapist than being white.

So @Linning are you saying that your experience is the experience and other lesbians are wrong, lying?

And you have no idea who here is also lesbian, so you might want to reign in the 'nasty ally' rhetoric.

I think you better be careful assuming it all white woken who are targeted and who are. Fighting back ( hint, it's not )

Why is it that whenever women complain about anything - the number of them is never enough.

Turns out 80 isn't enough and they're biased anyway.

This whole debacle has white men wanting to be confirmed as women and white women lashing out back.

This isn't about race, despite people trying to make out it is. There are plenty of black and Asian people on both sides.

Lucy Masoud isn't white, she's a black lesbian:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10132549/amp/Lesbian-claims-shes-seen-people-identify-trans-women-bully-young-girls-relationship.html

I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians,

Oh well in that case... you should have posted earlier. Clearly everyone is lying then if you have no experience of it. FFS

As long as consent is not given through fear (real fear, not fear of a sulk), it is consent.

*Whether you want to be in a relationship where you feel the obligated to have sex is a good question and one that, as an adult, you need to answer for yourself.

As is often said on MN , a woman is an adult human female, not a child who needs protecting from themselves (even if you feel it is for ‘their’ own good).*

Women need protecting from dangerous narratives which leaves them the option of being true to themselves and risking significant violence (usually verbal), harassment and possibly losing their job or trying to internalise the narrative despite the fact that it does not fit for them and can have significant negative consequences. It is not reasonable to push the blame back to the victims, nor to suggest that the only people who need protecting are children.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The fact that Nancy Kelley, Stonewall CEO can't unequivocally state that homosexuality is acceptable any more without saying people have to consider that they may have "prejudices" they need to unpack is really quite telling.

It really, really is.

The fact that Stonewall cannot have addressed this without any mention of any particular group when it was first raised with them by simply stating that sexual boundaries are to be respected by ALL and no one is entitled to try to lower any sexual boundaries in any way, is very chilling indeed.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

So *@Linning* are you saying that your experience is the experience and other lesbians are wrong, lying?

And you have no idea who here is also lesbian, so you might want to reign in the 'nasty ally' rhetoric.

Is that what I said? Or did you only read the part that triggered you and made up your own version of what I said? I specifically said that no doubt that there are transwomen out there who, (like people of all gender and sexuality can and have), cohersed women, included lesbian into having sex and dating them but that I definitely do not believe them to be the majority, and I, as a lesbian, who spends quite a lot of time surrounded by them, don’t feel a bit threatened by them.

I never said that other women are lying (did the word «lying» even appear anywhere on my post?) I am not dumb enough to think my experience is representative of all lesbians or that no transwoman is a rapist.

Also my ally comment is aimed at, ALLIES, so if you are also a lesbian, you are not an ally, and therefore my comment wasn’t aimed at you nor other lesbians/member of the community. I don’t need to know who is actually a lesbian or not in the comment section since my comment is not aimed at lesbians but aimed at the allies who fit the bill.

(Not) Sorry you disagree with my experience as a lesbian. It doesn’t give you the right to misuse my words and accuse me of things that I neither have said nor written.

@VladmirsPoutine

This whole debacle has white men wanting to be confirmed as women and white women lashing out back. All other women who otherwise those parties couldn't find a single shit to give about are caught in the middle.

Why do you think it's only white women who care about this?

@bordersmidgebites

To those talking about black men , please read up about what happened in Rotherham

This ^

If we really had no recorded evidence on rape, no studies, no understanding why it happen by who, and a small number of women came forward to say they had been raped only by black men then an article that considered why some black men were raping women would be fine.

This article is just saying this happens, it’s clear it’s some tw and even includes tw who say this happens, who are obviously not saying they themselves do this, so the journalist has included tw who aren’t rapists also. So including evidence that not all tw do this in her article.

We need to not be afraid to be honest about speaking up against people with pc. The AIBU thread about the co worker with asd who is sexually harassing her is a good example. His asd has been used to down play his harassment of her by management, leaving her vulnerable. As someone with children who have autism it’s down right gross to excuse anyone behaving this way because of a disability, as if that is related to his predatory behaviour.

@titchy

I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians,

Oh well in that case... you should have posted earlier. Clearly everyone is lying then if you have no experience of it. FFS

If you are going to quote my post at least include the part where I add that I know my experience isn’t representative of all lesbians and that of course there will be transwomen (like in any demographic of the population) sexual predators who will and have abused lesbians.

But sure, quoting a small part of the post and being aggravated by it is so much easier…

@Linning

I am a lesbian who has lived in many countries and therefore part of many many queer spaces and environment worldwide and is in almost continuous contact with trans women and I have never once felt threatened by them. I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians, in fact many of them fully expect to be rejected on the basis that they are trans and while they find it hurtful they tend to be extremely understanding of it, also many transwomen do NOT date women and would have absolutely zero interest in lesbians even if you offered one to them.

I am not saying that no transwoman has ever felt entitled to having sex/date a lesbian, or ever coherced a lesbian to have sex with them, but I have honestly not had one bad experience with a transwoman while I have gotten continuous sexual entitlement by cis-male AND even a fair amount of women (unfortunately including from a fair amount of lesbians).
You have entitled predators of all sexuality and gender. And as a lesbian who spends plenty of time a week with transwomen and people of all gender and sexuality, often in a setting where rape could easily happen. I feel 100 times safer around transwomen than I ever have around cis-straight men and definitely as safe as I do around other lesbians and bisexual women.

I also personally don’t know any lesbians who has ever felt threatened by a transwoman or coherced and and so I don’t actually know any lesbian IRL who fear transwoman the way people like to portray in articles or online forums and our bad experiences seem to be exclusively limited to cis-straight men and some fellow queer women which of course and again doesn’t mean that no transwoman has ever behaved badly. But that the threat that likes to be portrayed by media about the impact of transwomen on lesbian communities simply isn’t at all the reality i and most lesbians I know live in and has been extremely grossly exaggerated in a clear attempt to harm transwomen’s reputations and throw lesbians under the bus.

It’s funny how nobody cared about lesbians and our comforts or us having rights, until transwomen started getting more rights and suddenly all actions against trans individuals are made as a plea to protect lesbians.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

That’s great for you.

I know thousands and thousands of men. But I’ve only been raped by a few. Definitely a lot less than 1 in 100 men I know have raped me.

So, just to check I've understood:

The article which did not purport to show any trends, and acknowledged that it was a self-selecting group of respondents, should not be listened to as it "is trying to show a trend"

The article which very clearly said "some" and interviewed a transwoman, thereby clearly evidencing that it could not possibly be "all" is guilty of painting all transwomen in the same light.

There are some people on here who have not experienced this themselves to either don't believe others have or don't care.

You're only allowed to call yourself a lesbian now if your attraction is based on the concept of gender which still no-one has wanted to define. Despite this, there is no need to worry about the inequalities which people who fancy other people who had female bodies from birth, perhaps because if they let their prejudice make them not fancy people who want to have sex with them, then this is evidence that they are bigots and therefore should not expect any legal protections.

Calling someone a bigot, exposing them to on-line and RL hate which can sometimes culminate in people losing their livelihoods or sense of safety is maybe not 100% OK by some trans activists but still doesn't stop it from being 100% the woman's responsibility to not say yes to sex with someone they perceive to be a man.

If anyone calls any of this illogical or asks for someone to explain the logic of that position, they are transphobic.

@Linning

I am a lesbian who has lived in many countries and therefore part of many many queer spaces and environment worldwide and is in almost continuous contact with trans women and I have never once felt threatened by them. I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians, in fact many of them fully expect to be rejected on the basis that they are trans and while they find it hurtful they tend to be extremely understanding of it, also many transwomen do NOT date women and would have absolutely zero interest in lesbians even if you offered one to them.

I am not saying that no transwoman has ever felt entitled to having sex/date a lesbian, or ever coherced a lesbian to have sex with them, but I have honestly not had one bad experience with a transwoman while I have gotten continuous sexual entitlement by cis-male AND even a fair amount of women (unfortunately including from a fair amount of lesbians).
You have entitled predators of all sexuality and gender. And as a lesbian who spends plenty of time a week with transwomen and people of all gender and sexuality, often in a setting where rape could easily happen. I feel 100 times safer around transwomen than I ever have around cis-straight men and definitely as safe as I do around other lesbians and bisexual women.

I also personally don’t know any lesbians who has ever felt threatened by a transwoman or coherced and and so I don’t actually know any lesbian IRL who fear transwoman the way people like to portray in articles or online forums and our bad experiences seem to be exclusively limited to cis-straight men and some fellow queer women which of course and again doesn’t mean that no transwoman has ever behaved badly. But that the threat that likes to be portrayed by media about the impact of transwomen on lesbian communities simply isn’t at all the reality i and most lesbians I know live in and has been extremely grossly exaggerated in a clear attempt to harm transwomen’s reputations and throw lesbians under the bus.

It’s funny how nobody cared about lesbians and our comforts or us having rights, until transwomen started getting more rights and suddenly all actions against trans individuals are made as a plea to protect lesbians.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

Btw do you often keep around spare lesbians to offer to tw??

If you are going to quote my post at least include the part where I add that I know my experience isn’t representative of all lesbians and that of course there will be transwomen (like in any demographic of the population) sexual predators who will and have abused lesbians.

So you do believe them then? In which case why didn't you post saying how abhorrent it was? And how awful for Stonewall to effectively victim blame?

Why did you post an essentially NATWALT post? Do you think an All live matter post on a thread about violent racism would be a valuable contribution or a way of deflecting, gaslighting, stonewalling (how ironic...)?

*If you are going to quote my post at least include the part where I add that I know my experience isn’t representative of all lesbians and that of course there will be transwomen (like in any demographic of the population) sexual predators who will and have abused lesbians.

But sure, quoting a small part of the post and being aggravated by it is so much easier…*

So what point were you actually trying to make? You've had different experiences to those in the article but you acknowledge that your experiences are not shared by all? So what? No-one here is saying all or even most tranwomen are predatory.

Oh and your subsequent post - no, not all genders are violent to women - the vast vast vast majority of perpetrators are male. Not female.

@Linning regarding your point about Allies, what is wrong with women standing up for lesbian women who have said they have these experiences.

The fact is that many women regardless of their sexuality have experienced the misogyny of men. Many of us have experienced men behaving inappropriately towards us. We are therefore natural allies to women who are saying that this is an issue over males who identify as women who are threatening women who speak out of this with rape and worse on social media.

I'm unclear why you appear to sneer at women standing up for other women? Why do you think we should not do this as fundamentally there is a commonality of experience if you take gender Identity out of the equation.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments

As a lesbian, I've got it from both sides right here on MN from multiple threads.

I get the homophobia and scolding from women and TW who believe that I have no right to a sexuality that recognises biological sex and excludes male people from my body. I'm bad for being homosexual and not adapting that to better fit male people and their wishes. And I've encountered that harassment as a lesbian right here on MN many times.

I get the scolding from those insisting that this doesn't happen. On threads where it's happening usually. And that I'm bad all over again for being a homosexual who says this happens, talks about it and am apparently only saying it for evil political purposes.

Frankly these days I'd strongly suggest that lesbians are much safer pretending it's the 60s again and getting back in the closet. Fgs don't tell anyone you're homosexual. Sadly that particularly includes many women who would call themselves LGBT+ and queer. And fgs don't go to Pride unless you're good at lying and acting pan/hetero.

Oh god. More trans bashing. Let's all dump them into the same category, just because there are a few arseholes out there.

I hope and expect it is only an arsehole minority among TW and TRAs who actively think it's fine for lesbians to literally be forced to have sex with a TW.

But is it really true that only a few arseholes among TW and TRAs think it is transphobic for lesbians to entirely exclude TW from their 'dating pool'? I'm not so sure.

But it is unacceptable. People have the right to exclude anyone from their 'dating pool' for literally any reason they damn well like. And yes, that includes things over which the potential partner has no control - height, eye colour, even nationality or ethnicity. Because nobody is obliged to even consider dating or having sex with anyone from any group or category, or to justify why not.

include the part where I add that I know my experience isn’t representative of all lesbians

Like the survey in the article then, which made this clear.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

Please can you explain how the sentence lesbians are same sex attracted is in any way anti-trans?

@bordersmidgebites

I think you better be careful assuming it all white woken who are targeted and who are. Fighting back ( hint, it's not )

This ^^