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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

645 replies

loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:29

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

OP posts:
BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 17:36

@lazylinguist

I too have been raped by men and unfortunately also sexually coherced by women, and while it’s absolutely unacceptable and shouldn’t ever happen, none of us would say that women as a whole are a threat because I have had non-consensual experiences with them.

But nobody is saying that transwomen en masse are a threat because they force lesbians to have sex with them. (It should go without saying that it's wrong for anyone to coerce someone into sex). What people are saying is that it is not ok for TW or allies, or indeed anyone, to say that lesbians must consider having sex with transwomen. And it's not ok to say they're transphobic if they don't.

Don’t be daft, of course we are all saying that.

There could be no other reason for certain posters to continually read it that way if we weren’t actually accusing transwomen creating an army to rape all the lesbians could there? They say we say that so we must be saying that right? They wouldn’t deliberately misrepresent that for any other reason would they?

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 17:39

Thanks for posting that PurgatoryOfPotholes.

Angela Wild makes it very clear.

Yet, still on this very thread we have people stating one of the following

  • it doesn't happen
  • if it does happen, it is only a few
  • so it happens, but shhh! discussing it makes out that it is ALL that group (despite the very title saying 'SOME').
Linning · 30/10/2021 17:43

[quote BloodinGutters]@Linning

Read your own post. You literally said that you personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED by allies.

So yeah you said that. Why tell @BeyondShrinks you didn’t?[/quote]
Way more threatened by (specific) allies than by transwomen themselves.

That was my quote.

The word I used was transwomen.

@BeyondShrinks

Purposefully changed the word transwomen by rapists and said I was privileged to feel more «threatened by allies than by rapists.»

Which isn’t at all what I said.

Are you going to say that the word rapists and transwomen is interchangeable and that me saying I feel more threatened by some Allies than by transwomen as a whole is me saying that rapists aren’t a threat?

Like seriously?

So no I didn’t say that. @beyondShrinks post is purposefully acted as if me not feeling threatened by transwomen is me not feeling threatened by rapists. Transwomen (as a group) aren’t rapists and so her post is extremely offensive and has absolutely nothing to do with what I said or implied.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 17:44

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Also, DameFanny, have you ever looked at the questionnaire results before this? I have.

In fact, I used to link to it on MN. No-one used to have a problem with it. www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

Here are some extracts from it.

As a lesbian I have heard many lesbians privately discuss being targeted by transactivists for being lesbians.
Those stories were hushed in confidence, suppressed, women justifiably fearing retaliation from perpetrators.
This silencing means that there are very few public stories of lesbians on the “cotton ceiling”, a point often advanced by transactivists to dismiss lesbians’ dissent. The aim of this study was to give silenced lesbians an opportunity to speak anonymously about their experience when faced with men who identify as transwomen, while
formally gathering the missing evidence.
The survey aimed to find whether there is a form of social pressure on lesbians to accept trans ideology within the LGBT community, and what form this may take. How does this affect their ability to meet other lesbians?
Are lesbian dating sites safe for lesbians? Is this social pressure influencing lesbians’ life and their sexual life? If lesbians are pressured online, could they also be pressured offline? Are lesbians experiencing any form of sexual violence from men who call themselves lesbians? If yes what form does this sexual violence take?

(Continues)

Research tools and method

The research was initially planned to be a series of interviews conducted with women who would be preselected after taking part in the questionnaire. After careful consideration a questionnaire was deemed more suitable in order to map an under-researched issue. A questionnaire enables the researcher to ask respondents a wider variety of questions in a short space of time (Sarantokos, 2012) and gives respondents the chance to complete the questionnaire in their own time (Curtis and Curtis, 2011).
The survey comprised of 30 questions about lesbians’ experience. It had sections relating to the following subjects: respondent identity, their experiences in LGBT groups and on lesbian dating sites, their experiences interacting with men who identify as transwomen as potential sexual partners. For the purpose of the survey, I used the queer terminology “transwomen” as advised by the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee believed that the survey should be “objective” but did not consider that the term “transwomen” is not an objective term and is far less widely accepted than they claimed, a point noted by a respondent who complained that the term was incorrect and misleading as “transwomen” are biologically male, therefore “not a subset of women”.
The survey was sent to women-only and lesbian-only groups on social media, as well as to individual lesbians in my own networks. As such the sample does not claim to be a representative sample of the lesbian community.
However, the research was to capture the points of view and stories of many, until now, silenced lesbians.

Findings

Within a few days, 80 women had responded to the survey, far more than originally planned. This rapid engagement demonstrates a keen interest by women who are affected by such issues and the recognition that there is a lack of work and visibility in this area. Several women left private notes, thanking me for the opportunity to speak up. Lesbians were eager to share their stories. The intention was to record lesbians’ experiences from the UK (48%), however the survey was also answered by women across the world 9, highlighting that the questions raised
concerns for lesbians in different parts of the western world. All age groups were represented. Due to the imposed time constraints of the research, I had to limit the number of questions relating to demographic information and also relating to the location e.g. rural/city provenance. Future research that will attempt to understand these views in more depth and detail will take more factors into considerations.

(Continues)

The majority of respondents reported being part of lesbian, queer or LGBT groups online (11%), offline (37%) or both (48%). 72% reported being part of strictly women-only groups (excluding “transwomen”).
Women were also part of groups which are mixed – including men and women (20%),
inclusive of all gender (21%),
women-only but including self-identifying women (20%)
and welcoming of “transwomen” (26%).

Women who were in groups that were not “women-only” reported “feeling silenced”, “intimidated”, “unable to speak freely”, “uncomfortable” with the group policy and wishing the group was for women only but “dare not say it”. Several reported how “transwomen derail” and monopolise the discussion to be solely about their issues while shutting down discussion about women’s or lesbians’ issues by calling it “transphobic”. Group dynamics are described as “toxic”. Several women explain how “transwomen are behaving just like men”.

Lesbians constantly report being told their sexuality is “wrong” if they openly state they are solely attracted to women.

Women reported “threats”, “intimidations” and “abuse”, by “transwomen” and allies.
Several respondents explained they understand and respect the need for “transwomen” to meet exclusively amongst themselves but cannot understand the lack of reciprocity accorded to women and lesbians by the trans community.

50% of women reported being excluded from their LGBT group(s).

The reason for their removal was made clear: questioning any aspect of the queer doctrine results in women be-
ing labelled “transphobic”, resulting in a ban. Respondents were banned for sharing articles from feminists that their group disapproved of, or for stating biological facts about sex and anatomy such as: “just females have periods”.
Several respondents have left groups themselves due to intimidation or before being pushed out.
Women who are still in LGBT groups have not been excluded because they report “not being open with their views".

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.
While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

I have never read the details of that before @PurgatoryOfPotholes

I must be doing allying wrong (allyship?) @Linning is correct to feel WAY MORE THREATENED by us.

Ty for educating me

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 17:44

For people who don't exist, they're very loud.

Content warning. Rape jokes and rape threats. twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1454233030718021633?t=N4FSnxrN0U1SYkv0y1g7yA&s=19

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 17:45

Seriously though ty for posting it @PurgatoryOfPotholes

(Wanted to say before I get put on a time out)

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 17:45

And those results too PurgatoryOfPotholes

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.

While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

Where would any of these activities be considered acceptable? Really?

Why is this behaviour considered acceptable?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 30/10/2021 17:51

Why is this behaviour considered acceptable?

Because who is going to complain when everyone affected is living in fear. I wonder how many of the posters saying that no one they know has had this happen to them just don't know about it due to the fear of speaking out that exists

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 17:51

@BloodinGutters

Seriously though ty for posting it *@PurgatoryOfPotholes*

(Wanted to say before I get put on a time out)

Flowers
TatianaBis · 30/10/2021 17:53

@TatianaBis

I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful, in keeping lesbians safe from cohersion.

I’m really struggling to see anywhere that anyone has said all trans women are a threat.

What is it about discussions about rape that make people panic and claim all men [or transwomen in this case] are being labelled thus?

Do you really believe that is what people are saying? If so why.

@Linning

As you haven’t replied I’ll tell you why I think people do this.

Because: a. They know their argument is weak of itself so. b. They intentionally misrepresent the other side’s argument to discredit it, make it sound unreasonable, and shut down the discussion.

Unless you have a genuine, legitimate reason for extrapolation of all from some - which I would like to hear.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 17:58

@Helleofabore

And those results too PurgatoryOfPotholes

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.

While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

Where would any of these activities be considered acceptable? Really?

Why is this behaviour considered acceptable?

That’s extreme and really terrifying.

Not that it would be ok if it were ‘just’ online bullying or similar, that has very real and serious consequences also, but at least that’s not unheard of within the younger demographic in other areas already. While unacceptable it seems not out of line with how generations who grew up on line behave when they think no one knows who they are. People physically attacking people, harassing their employers are similar is next level scary.

Hope I’ve phrased that correctly. Not meaning to down play online abuse or suggest all gen x&z are like this. But the fact it reaches into these young women’s lives so literally and physically must be overwhelmingly terrifying for them.

FourTeaFallOut · 30/10/2021 17:59

It's the same whiny tactics that the mras use..."women won't have sex with me, something is wrong with them, if only they weren't so mean and closed minded they'd have sex with me, let me tell you all the reasons why you should have sex with me and stop being so mean....waaaah, waaaah, waaah". It sounds entirely familiar to me.

BeyondShrinks · 30/10/2021 18:01

We were talking about lesbians being threatened by rapists. Men/transwomen/even fucking unicorns, I don't care how anyone identifies - I care that same-sex attracted women are being raped, coerced and threatened.

You changed the discussion to being about all trans people. No one else did that. The OP and the article were about the existence of the problem and you're NATWALTing all over it, and pretending that our allies are more of a problem than actual rapists.

Oh and "yes people like you who make assumptions about others background and are quick to call an entire group rapists are a much bigger threat to me" - I'm not one of those scary allies you are so worried about, I'm a same-sex attracted women (used to be a name for that...? 🤔) who has experienced this myself. So unless you are going to outright call me a liar (#metoo?), try having a bit of empathy.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 18:02

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

Why is this behaviour considered acceptable?

Because who is going to complain when everyone affected is living in fear. I wonder how many of the posters saying that no one they know has had this happen to them just don't know about it due to the fear of speaking out that exists

This is very very true.

But also it comes back to the fact that women are merely sub humans. We are just support props for men. Walking holes to fuck. And lesbians are women who have refused to let a man fuck them just because they are only ever attracted to women, so couldn’t ever be attracted to men.

Well that can’t do. Women can’t go thinking their level of attraction or pleasure has anything to do with men sticking their dicks in us, can we.

BeyondShrinks · 30/10/2021 18:04

Plus, ahem, pot/kettle 😂
Claiming I make assumptions about you while assuming I'm straight.

fallenwood · 30/10/2021 18:21

@BloodinGutters you say Nope not an assumption. There’s research into this. Blanchard, but we’re not normally allowed to name the (scientific/medical) term he uses for straight tw if you are talking about "most" you need statistics, not research. Do you have bonafide statistics? If not it is an assumption. If you think any piece of peer reviewed research backs up the assumption then please link

ArcheryAnnie · 30/10/2021 18:23

@Miliao

What a vile AIBU. But you know this. You’re just trying to stir things. Some people are horrible and it doesn’t matter what sex, orientation, colour, religion - but most people don’t take the views of a small percentage of that population and extrapolate it to make it seem that whole group thinks and acts like a whole. I’m guessing you are female, I don’t think all women are prejudiced and mean just because one (you) have deliberately started such a deliberately provocative thread.
Thing is, this problem - lesbians being pressured to sleep with transwomen - has been happening for years. It's been supported, as other posters have said, by a campaign of bullying and manipulation from trans activists across the board, up to and including Stonewall. It isn't about a handful of transwomen being "horrible", it's much more systematic than that.

What is horrible is people trying to silence women talking about their experience of sexual predators, and people specifically trying to silence lesbians talking about how those who should be there to defend them - like Stonewall - attempting to shame them for having exclusively same-sex desires, and creating and bolstering a situation where those lesbians are pressured into heterosexual sex.

Why, Miliao, are you so keen to silence lesbians talking about this?

titchy · 30/10/2021 18:24

if you are talking about "most" you need statistics, not research.

GrinGrinGrinGrin Oh that is funny!

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 30/10/2021 18:25

BloodinGutters

So many times I've written people don't care cos it's lesbians and they're classed as worthless cos they won't fuck men and that's all women really get judged on and then deleted it because of self monitoring what I say. In other words even here I'm too scared to say what I really think. But no it's time to stand up and be counted. I'm getting angrier and angrier, gaslighting, sealioning, strawmen, natwalt oh and women do it too. It's so fucking insulting.

Linning · 30/10/2021 18:30

@TatianaBis

It’s funny how the whole thread is about «isn’t it wrong for people to feel entitled to lesbians engaging with them when they should be free to only engage (sexually or otherwise) with whoever they want?» (which I fully agree with by the way)

And yet posters (like you) who agree with the principle that lesbians should be free to engage or not as they want (as should be the norm for anyone) ironically feel entitled to me engaging with them and answering to them right away on mumsnet just because they quoted me and therefore feel it entitles them to an answer from me and if I don’t provide it in a timely fashion, or engage with others instead of them, feel like I should be called out and have a further lecture as to why I should address them and why if I haven’t then it probably means X, Y, Z about me and my argument.

I don’t mind it but isn’t it (at least a tiny bit) ironic?

I will answer you though.

I have at no point made a point about all Mumsnet posters in this thread. I haven’t made one single generalization about people who agree with the OP or disagree with the OP. I haven’t said that all people who agree with OP are «anti-trans», I haven’t denied the fact that some transwomen are a threat to lesbians, I haven’t even said that all people who fear transwomen, think that they are rapists. Nothing in my post suggest any of that.

My post was me sharing my experience as a lesbian and why I don’t consider myself threatened by them. I at no point said no transwomen is a threat, and I at no point accused all Mumsnetters on this thread with a differing point of view of accusing all transwomen of being rapists. Some people, like a poster I quoted before, purposefully misquoted me in a way that clearly imply that (in her world) transwomen and rapists are the same and interchangeable which is absolutely not okay and is exactly the type of people that I was addressing when I said that some allies are more threatening than transwomen as whole because thoughtless and biased generalizations and stereotyping of entire (sub-) groups of people is exactly the thing that has caused so much harm to minorities, including lesbians. But that was a comment to the people who engage in that type of thinking and argument and I purposefully specified that in my original post (and later reiterated it to the specific commenter) I at no point made the bold statement that “all people who have apprehensions about trans people think they are rapists” and that’s why I didn’t answer to your initial comment to me because your point seemed to be that I seemed to assume/think everybody who doesn’t agree with me assume all transwomen are rapist when it’s not ever what I said or assumed.

It’s undeniable thought that some people think like that (including some on this thread) the same way some transwomen/allies think it’s okay to coherce lesbians or call them transphobic and both are problematic.

Me addressing specifically/exclusively the people who think like that in my post doesn’t mean I assume everyone think like that.

ArcheryAnnie · 30/10/2021 18:33

@DavidDevantsSpiritWife

DD was bullied relentlessly online and irl for saying she did not want to be in a relationship with someone with a penis. She was 15 and had just come out when the bullying began.

At university she was asked by a friend on her course if she was 'a lesbian for sex or gender'. When she said sex the friend (and the rest of the friendship group) froze her out and told her that they were considering reporting her transphobia to the university, and that to not want to be with someone because of their genitals would 'hurt their feelings'. She was also called a fake lesbian and a vagina fetishist by another (ex) friend.

Apparently women must have sex with whoever wants to have sex with them for fear of hurting their feelings. Who knew.

This is utterly horrific. I am so sorry, and I hope your DD has found a supportive network since then.
TatianaBis · 30/10/2021 18:41

This is all very self-absorbed @Linning. I not bothered whether you engage with me or not, I’m simply working mum of 3 who doesn’t have much time for internet discussion.

your point seemed to be that I seemed to assume/think everybody who doesn’t agree with me assume all transwomen are rapist when it’s not ever what I said or assumed

This is what you said:

I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful

Now you say:

It’s undeniable thought that some people think like that (including some on this thread)

Is it?

Can you pick out examples?

Linning · 30/10/2021 18:43

@BeyondShrinks

We were talking about lesbians being threatened by rapists. Men/transwomen/even fucking unicorns, I don't care how anyone identifies - I care that same-sex attracted women are being raped, coerced and threatened.

You changed the discussion to being about all trans people. No one else did that. The OP and the article were about the existence of the problem and you're NATWALTing all over it, and pretending that our allies are more of a problem than actual rapists.

Oh and "yes people like you who make assumptions about others background and are quick to call an entire group rapists are a much bigger threat to me" - I'm not one of those scary allies you are so worried about, I'm a same-sex attracted women (used to be a name for that...? 🤔) who has experienced this myself. So unless you are going to outright call me a liar (#metoo?), try having a bit of empathy.

Are you asking for empathy from me when your first interaction with me was (wrongly) calling me privileged and twisting my words in a way that implied trans and rapist was the same word all while implying I probably have not experienced sexual assaults and I am protective of rapists Just because my experience/opinion differed from yours? I am sorry you went through sexual assault, and I have no reason to doubt you are a lesbian, I have no interest in calling people liars on any topic and have not done so on this thread.

You are the one who felt the need to call someone “privileged” and assume their experience/background just because it was different to yours. So not sure where I lacked empathy towards you.

“People like you” is anyone who make assumptions that are harmful to others which you have. I didn’t assume you were an ally. I just stated you twisted my words and made harmful assumptions. So not sure where it should be me who should have some “empathy” but alright?

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 18:46

By stating you don't fell threatened by ) any) transpeople you are implying that others are saying they are threatened by all transpeople. They were threatened however by sone transpeople using their status to bully and hurt the lesbians

If those people were not using their trans status then there would have been no need to mention it

But it is actually a key part of how they managed to rape people

Not all trans people are good.

Deny that any are bad , prevent this being reported, brush it under the carpet and you allow bad things to happen

DrSbaitso · 30/10/2021 18:47

Why is this behaviour considered acceptable?

Misogyny is very acceptable. The thinnest veil is all it needs.