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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

645 replies

loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:29

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 30/10/2021 15:44

I just find it baffling that anyone can hear about this and can call the women reporting these experiences liars/ deny it happens/say NATWALT/say 'well, it's only a few lesbians it happens to, so who cares?'.

If this is happening on any scale, the human reaction would be to say 'fucking hell, that's awful that anyone is being coerced into sex, for any reason!'. The reaction from Stonewall (the only 'allowed' LGBT+ organisation) should surely be 'we're horrified that this is happening in our community, we condemn it utterly' not 'it shouldn't really be happening but....'.

Does the whole 'me too' movement just not apply to lesbians in some posters opinion?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 15:46

The Twitter thread linked in the post isn't found @Ereshkigalangcleg,any clues?

Some of them will have been taken down as people have been suspended, Twitter is no friend to gender critical feminism. Which thread are you referring to?

titchy · 30/10/2021 15:48

Does the whole 'me too' movement just not apply to lesbians in some posters opinion?

Apparently #metoo only applies to pretty, young, white, straight women....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 15:49

Why is everyone so hung up on the survey?

Because it's easy to dismiss the whole thing, and by extension the whole issue as made up, by focussing on one element. And we absolutely can't have a group of women challenging the sacred caste of the day being allowed to speak freely and have their feelings and concerns listened to.

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 15:50

@DavidDevantsSpiritWife

DD was bullied relentlessly online and irl for saying she did not want to be in a relationship with someone with a penis. She was 15 and had just come out when the bullying began.

At university she was asked by a friend on her course if she was 'a lesbian for sex or gender'. When she said sex the friend (and the rest of the friendship group) froze her out and told her that they were considering reporting her transphobia to the university, and that to not want to be with someone because of their genitals would 'hurt their feelings'. She was also called a fake lesbian and a vagina fetishist by another (ex) friend.

Apparently women must have sex with whoever wants to have sex with them for fear of hurting their feelings. Who knew.

I have watched this in action with 15 year olds at the moment.

For all those adults who are saying it is not happening, or that it is not affecting them. This is most definitely affecting the teenagers right now. And I mean, right now. The peer groups are piling on the pressure for lesbians to accept dick if it is a trans dick. And they are ostracising those who disagree.

This is an issue that needs to be discussed, it needs to be addressed and if Stonewall refuses to do it, and they have had ample Lesbian Visibility Days in which to start a campaign that states that no lesbian should ever be shamed or coerced into sex regardless of who is the person doing it, then Stonewall needs to be by passed and mainstream media need to pick it up. And it has been.

This has been an ongoing issue and lesbians have been harmed by the neglect of the groups that are supposed to be supporting them. Instead, on this very thread we have the 'scale' argument in all its glory. "it is not that wide spread a problem'..

Fuck that. It is A problem and it could have been quite easily addressed with a program that focused on lesbian sexual boundaries and CONSENT. And that no person ever has the right to pressure any person for sex in any way. EVER.

Instead, I am watching groups of 15 year old lesbians being pressured to say they will accept dick.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 30/10/2021 15:50

I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given and the lack of examples

So exactly how many numbers or examples are needed to "establish a trend"? To accept it's an issue?

Clymene · 30/10/2021 15:52

@Echobelly

Agree with *@DellaPorter* - I don't get the impression that 'trans people' or 'trans activists' are demanding all lesbians must have sex with trans people or be labelled transphobes.

I am sure there have been some shitty individuals who have pressurised lesbians against their will, but it doesn't amount to every single one wanting that or a movement by rights activists. I get why trans women may feel worried about calling this out as unfortunately it has been weaponised as an anti-trans thing, rather than being understood an 'anti abusive people' thing. In an ideal world they should be making noise about these abusive individuals, but while people are smugly going 'Oho, but that never happens does it?' understandably that makes it difficult.

And yes I know there are trans/pro trans people on social media shouting about 'suck my girl dick' etc, but that is just 'nut picking' and finding what amounts in reality to a few extreme people, it's not real life.

I'm also sure most trans women who have disclosed their status would understand the difference between a potential sexual partner telling them 'I'm sorry, this isn't going to work out for me' (pesonal choice) and 'Ugh, get away from me you pervy autogynophile' (transphobia).

Have you actually read the article? This is a real thing. Every lesbian I know who has been on lesbian dating apps has been verbally abused for turning down transwomen.

Lesbians are same sex attracted.

And if men who say they're women are so adamant that genitals don't matter, why don't they just stick to having relationships with other men who say they're women, rather than calling lesbians transphobic for not wanting to have sex with then?

If we can't talk about women being victims of sexual abuse without feeling sorry for the perpetrators or rushing in with the trans version of Not All Men, we have a big problem.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 15:54

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Deflection, that’s why

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 15:55

The survey is largely irrelevant to be honest, it's clear it's happening from all the other evidence.

YY. I don't have particularly favourable opinions, as a rape survivor, of anyone who thinks there are more important causes than giving victims of sexual violence a voice and considering their perspectives and needs. But if you look at say the Guilty "Feminist" podcast, it seems that there are plenty of women who think women should be silent for their idea of the greater good.

A thread in FWR currently:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4388103-The-silencing-of-women-girls-lesbians-rape-victims-CSA-for-the-greater-good

Dervel · 30/10/2021 15:56

@Hellofabore but the problem is that it’s being posted as a piece of whattaboutery in response to womens sexual boundaries being violated. You either want to centre that or you want to minimise it and focus or something else.

Thing is many of those women DID consider their biases, even made the attempt to sleep with someone they weren’t attracted to, and then felt the cost of that later. So which is more important one persons orgasm or another persons sense of being violated?

Furthermore that this whole “be kind” rhetoric has caused someone women to feel unable to bring their experiences forward for fear of accusations of bigotry and social ostracism. This has led us to being distinctly unkind to one grouping of people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 15:57

Hashtag Bekind! hardly ever works in women's favour.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 15:58

@titchy

Does the whole 'me too' movement just not apply to lesbians in some posters opinion?

Apparently #metoo only applies to pretty, young, white, straight women....

And it only applies to them as long as men still get to sympathy fuck then and feel their pain and shit.

A gross phenomenon I discovered often happened when I told men about my abuse when I was young and thin and hot still.

TedMullins · 30/10/2021 16:04

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend? Of course it wouldn’t. The trans women that are coercing lesbians are of course sex offenders and are completely in the wrong. But it is not the majority school of thought in the trans community that lesbians need to be ‘turned’. Trans Media Watch has put out a statement confirming as much. As PP have pointed out Lily Cade is herself a sex offender and one of the other interviewees said on Twitter that their and their friends experiences were all with the same person - one trans woman, not multiple. The BBC did not do it’s due diligence. On any other topic, a self-selecting survey with that small a sample size would not be permitted to be used as evidence to back up such a serious claim. I am familiar with their editorial guidelines so I’m not just focusing on the survey in an attempt to obfuscate.

LaetitiaASD · 30/10/2021 16:06

[quote BloodinGutters]@DameFanny

So you’re another one who doesn’t believe the lesbians in the article? Or the tw in the article who confirm this happens? Or the links posted on this thread of collected evidence going back years that shows it does?[/quote]
I think that Dame Fanny might like to look at those using death and rape threats and those pushing to eliminate all sex based and sexual-orientation based rights if she wants to see who is harming trans people at the moment.

Stonewall has set itself up in direct opposition to anyone who is gay, lesbian or straight, or who does not have a gender identity, or anyone who believes in women's rights. That is a lot of people to start shooting at if you want to win the war.

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 16:07

[quote Dervel]@Hellofabore but the problem is that it’s being posted as a piece of whattaboutery in response to womens sexual boundaries being violated. You either want to centre that or you want to minimise it and focus or something else.

Thing is many of those women DID consider their biases, even made the attempt to sleep with someone they weren’t attracted to, and then felt the cost of that later. So which is more important one persons orgasm or another persons sense of being violated?

Furthermore that this whole “be kind” rhetoric has caused someone women to feel unable to bring their experiences forward for fear of accusations of bigotry and social ostracism. This has led us to being distinctly unkind to one grouping of people.[/quote]
This has led us to being distinctly unkind to one grouping of people.

Yes. It is unkind to Lesbians specifically.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/10/2021 16:10

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

So what? Just because something has not happened to you, does not mean it's not happened to anyone else. I've never been sex trafficked but that does not mean I'm unable to believe that it happens or don't care about those it happens to. Neither does it make me think that all males are sex traffickers.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

I think you must be posting on the wrong thread. No-one here is saying trans-women are not welcome in their space. Unless you mean public female-only spaces? In which case, so what? In a democracy we don't let one person speak for everyone.

This.

Of course most transwomen aren't agressive, scary or predatory (and Not All Men Are Like That, either). Nobody said they were. Does that make it hateful to point out that some are, and that women have a right to be heard on the subject?

Transwomen have male rates of sexual predation and violence, and not female. To understand how significant that is, you need to recognise that statistically, 99% of serious sexual offending is committed by men, and 88% of the victims are women. In excess of 13500 men are jailed at any one time for sex offending from 33 million men in the UK population, versus just 120-130 women from 33 million. And more than 80 transwomen, from a population of just 100,000 and 200,000 are in jail for sex offences. That means transwomen are as massively more likely to harm women as anyone else male - a fact statistical data from other countries also supports.

Are you aware that a significant majority of sexual assaults in changing rooms happen in mixed sex ones, despite far fewer changing rooms being mixed sex? It doesn't matter how someone identifies; someone with a penis poses thousands of times the risk to someone with a vagina than another person with a vagina. Gender identity is completely irrelevant to that risk level.

Use whatever language you want: some transwomen are bullying and gaslighting some lesbians into sexual contact, and they have social pressures - the threat of being able to label anyone saying no as transphobic, within their social circles - as a lever. There have been workshops entitled 'Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling' - that cotton ceiling being lesbian underwear. (This article on it is written by a thoroughly decent, and thoroughly appalled, transwoman.) Stonewall's response to this story is that any women dismissing a whole group of people for reasons such as race or trans status need to consider their prejudices. How can you possibly claim that that kind of toxic, male-entitled pressure has no effect?

Stonewall was founded to defend the rights of those dismissing a whole class of people from their sexual lives: the opposite sex. Now they are saying that's akin to racism. And when gay people recognise that Stonewall now deems literal homosexuality bigoted, and start a new charity to defend that right, they're called hateful for that, too. It's beyond belief.

More than 90% of transwomen have no surgery nor hormones, nothing. They're women because they say so. And lesbians are sent on blind dates, unwarned, by the Guardian, for example. Because anyone who thinks that's wrong is a hateful bigot. And a lesbian would be very, very foolish to complain about being expected to play along, because peers (such as the poster, perhaps) would clearly be very swift to ostracise her if she did. How is that not homophobic? Telling gay women to consider male sexual partners?

Again, of course most transwomen are perfectly nice, decent people. They're just human beings, and most people, thank God, are. But by the same token, they are male human beings, with statistically male rates of violence and entitlement issues. We say Me Too and Believe Women unless trans is in the frame - at which point we explicitly reverse the ordering, so that any woman complaining is abusive and/or lying. Women are being silenced and shamed out of saying, no, we shouldn't remove all our usual understanding around the dynamics between the sexes if someone asserts a gender identity at odds with their body. Male bodies aren't suddenly no more risk than female based on gender identity - why would they be? That's magical thinking. Yet women naming a statistically evidenced reality are shamed for hatred and fear. Wanting single sex spaces isn't hateful. Lesbianism isn't hateful. And while hate is certainly in the frame when women assert male predation and a ton of people instantly lose their shit, that hatred's not coming from the women telling their stories.

You don't have to have been abused as a child to believe survivors of child abuse. You don't have to have been raped to believe other women are. You just have to believe women are human, and have rights, and one of those rights is to secure single sex spaces because they are proven to be so very much safer for us, as a group, and that male predation and abuse of women matters, whatever gender the person doing it asserts.

And lesbians - female homosexuals - should have the right to spaces, groups and dating opportunities limited to one another. To claim otherwise is homophobic.

We don't exclude all men from single sex spaces and provision because we think all men are evil predators. We do it because almost all evil predators are men. If transwomen pose the same statistical threat to women as anyone else with a male body, why is it hateful to want the same safeguards applied? Why do some women want to put other women at avoidable increased risk of harm, just to please a specific group of males? How is putting male women's wishes ahead of female women's safety not fundamentally sexist?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 30/10/2021 16:10

What value in a patriarchal society do lesbians have? Do they have the right to state their boundaries as being same sex attracted? Anyone who can not wholeheartedly stand behind these women and say we support you and your right to say no needs to look at themselves very closely and ask themselves why they can't do so.

Everyone has the right to define their own boundaries. Full stop, no but, no and, no questions.

Linning · 30/10/2021 16:17

I am a lesbian who has lived in many countries and therefore part of many many queer spaces and environment worldwide and is in almost continuous contact with trans women and I have never once felt threatened by them. I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians, in fact many of them fully expect to be rejected on the basis that they are trans and while they find it hurtful they tend to be extremely understanding of it, also many transwomen do NOT date women and would have absolutely zero interest in lesbians even if you offered one to them.

I am not saying that no transwoman has ever felt entitled to having sex/date a lesbian, or ever coherced a lesbian to have sex with them, but I have honestly not had one bad experience with a transwoman while I have gotten continuous sexual entitlement by cis-male AND even a fair amount of women (unfortunately including from a fair amount of lesbians).
You have entitled predators of all sexuality and gender. And as a lesbian who spends plenty of time a week with transwomen and people of all gender and sexuality, often in a setting where rape could easily happen. I feel 100 times safer around transwomen than I ever have around cis-straight men and definitely as safe as I do around other lesbians and bisexual women.

I also personally don’t know any lesbians who has ever felt threatened by a transwoman or coherced and and so I don’t actually know any lesbian IRL who fear transwoman the way people like to portray in articles or online forums and our bad experiences seem to be exclusively limited to cis-straight men and some fellow queer women which of course and again doesn’t mean that no transwoman has ever behaved badly. But that the threat that likes to be portrayed by media about the impact of transwomen on lesbian communities simply isn’t at all the reality i and most lesbians I know live in and has been extremely grossly exaggerated in a clear attempt to harm transwomen’s reputations and throw lesbians under the bus.

It’s funny how nobody cared about lesbians and our comforts or us having rights, until transwomen started getting more rights and suddenly all actions against trans individuals are made as a plea to protect lesbians.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

VickyEadieofThigh · 30/10/2021 16:18

@TedMullins

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend? Of course it wouldn’t. The trans women that are coercing lesbians are of course sex offenders and are completely in the wrong. But it is not the majority school of thought in the trans community that lesbians need to be ‘turned’. Trans Media Watch has put out a statement confirming as much. As PP have pointed out Lily Cade is herself a sex offender and one of the other interviewees said on Twitter that their and their friends experiences were all with the same person - one trans woman, not multiple. The BBC did not do it’s due diligence. On any other topic, a self-selecting survey with that small a sample size would not be permitted to be used as evidence to back up such a serious claim. I am familiar with their editorial guidelines so I’m not just focusing on the survey in an attempt to obfuscate.
The article specifically said "some". Not all. SOME.

Moreover, it didn't even scratch the surface of the evidence we've been seeing for quite some time - from lesbian dating apps, for example - of transwomen infiltrating such groups despite the women there being only interested in women.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 16:19

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend?

Transwomen are a subset of men, some of whom are using their trans status to try and coerce lesbians into sex, by claiming that its transphobic and bigoted to not be attracted to male bodies. I think that's a discussion worth having, and that the stories of those women are worth listening to.

Also, there was only a very small part of the article about the survey, and it stated that conclusions cannot be drawn from the survey alone.

What was far more interesting to me were the testimonies of the lesbians interviews, the screenshots from TRAs talking about how lesbians should be accepting penis and the quote from Nancy Kelley.

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 16:19

@TedMullins

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend? Of course it wouldn’t. The trans women that are coercing lesbians are of course sex offenders and are completely in the wrong. But it is not the majority school of thought in the trans community that lesbians need to be ‘turned’. Trans Media Watch has put out a statement confirming as much. As PP have pointed out Lily Cade is herself a sex offender and one of the other interviewees said on Twitter that their and their friends experiences were all with the same person - one trans woman, not multiple. The BBC did not do it’s due diligence. On any other topic, a self-selecting survey with that small a sample size would not be permitted to be used as evidence to back up such a serious claim. I am familiar with their editorial guidelines so I’m not just focusing on the survey in an attempt to obfuscate.
Can we consider the degree to which women, particularly lesbians, are being pressured to remain silent?

That 80 lesbians answered a self-selecting survey is not an issue.

This is an issue that has been brought to Stonewall's attention for some time. And they have doubled down. Not once have they released any communication to say 'Lesbians have the right to define their sexual boundaries and it is completely unacceptable for any person, of any gender, to pressure or coerce a lesbian to lower these boundaries.'

It SHOULD have been said when the social media abuse started, and yet it has remained completely unaddressed.

But it is not the majority school of thought in the trans community that lesbians need to be ‘turned’.

It doesn't have to be the majority school of thought. At all. It should have been addressed from the beginning.

And we have had posters on the FWR threads who have also been coerced into sex with a transitioned male. There are many lesbians anonymously saying this is happening to them. But no one speaks publicly about it. Look what happens to anyone who does.

So, tell us. If Stonewall will not address this, if they will not address the horrendous abuse that is happening on social media in front of their very eyes that lesbians receive for declaring their sexual boundaries, what should be done to address it? Or do you seriously not think this is a problem?

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 16:22

It's not happened to me or my friends ... do you think those people are lying or fo you mean that it doesn't matter if it's only a few women?

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 16:22

To those talking about black men , please read up about what happened in Rotherham

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 16:25

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend?

That isn't remotely an appropriate analogy. Female people are not the oppressors of males. MTF trans people as a group aren't more of a vulnerable population than lesbians, or women generally, IMO.

Not all situations are the same. What if there was a group of white men abusing their greater social power to coerce black women, and this was being covered up by white people because white people found it inconvenient? What would your view be then? Just curious.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 16:27

@TedMullins

If 56% of 80 women answered a self-selecting survey by a white nationalist group saying they’d been raped by black men, would it then be ethically and factually sound to publish an article saying black men are raping women and that it’s a growing trend? Of course it wouldn’t. The trans women that are coercing lesbians are of course sex offenders and are completely in the wrong. But it is not the majority school of thought in the trans community that lesbians need to be ‘turned’. Trans Media Watch has put out a statement confirming as much. As PP have pointed out Lily Cade is herself a sex offender and one of the other interviewees said on Twitter that their and their friends experiences were all with the same person - one trans woman, not multiple. The BBC did not do it’s due diligence. On any other topic, a self-selecting survey with that small a sample size would not be permitted to be used as evidence to back up such a serious claim. I am familiar with their editorial guidelines so I’m not just focusing on the survey in an attempt to obfuscate.
There is already plenty stats on race and rape, and it’s well established that it’s being male that is the defining factor.

However if there was zero research, zero crime stats on race and rape (which would mean no crime stats on rape at all because because ethnicity is recorded about suspects so it’s easy to establish race of rapists and if there’s any relationship between race and being a rapist) but if there was zero evidence on that and the first people ever to come forward were all victims of black men and said so, then it would be fine for their to be an article that addresses this and uses the term ‘some’ in it. As this article did. How very racist to suggest otherwise.

It is obfuscation to compare lwithoutt as to a white nationalists though. Being a lesbian is a protected characteristic under the equality act. They are allowed their own groups. Suggesting this is like white nationalism is like screaming all lives matter in response to blm.

The poster on Twitter in no way suggested that the other interviewees were her friends, just that her friends experienced the same from this repeat offender.

Lilly Cade is not one of the lesbians interviewed about rape. She’s only in the article because the tw who expected to be able to fuck her used her refusal as the basis for the concept of the cotton ceiling. The journalist isn’t claiming anything about Lilly Cade, just explaining the origin of the term cotton ceiling. However Lilly Cade could be a cannibal child killer and as a lesbian she is still same sex attracted and entitled to tell a tw who wants to fuck her to piss off. Some lesbians being scum doesn’t stop them being lesbians does it? It doesn’t redefine the legal meaning of lesbian does it? The same way a tw wanting to be a woman doesn’t make that fact.