Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

Stonewall has seriously lost it's way if it can't loudly and clearly state that lesbians have the right to same sex attraction and it is not bigotry to enforce those boundaries.

Wonder if it would be worth a complaint to the charities commission that stonewall are no longer fulfilling their charitable aims?

"I’m sure you’re aware that the enthusiastic comes from the fries acronym.
"

I wasn't aware until this thread actually. Goes to show you shouldn't decide campaigns based on which letter fits. As I've mentioned, in a previous thread here, people definitely argued that enthusiastic here has the usual sense so I think the 'original' meaning you mention is not universally understood.

"It’s not difficult to grasp. "

It clearly is, because I'm not the only one who's understood the word according to its actual definition.

@Rosiesmydog said "Because most tw are straight males not homosexual males.

They want to fuck women not men. And they want recognises as women so only want to fuck women who exclusively fuck women."

[This post does not seek to encourage or glorify violence]

That is a massive part of it, but I think there is more. TW are not complete idiots. For better or for worse a typical heterosexual man is likely to respond with some sort of combination of ridicule, abuse and violence were some male bodied trans person approach them for "straight sex". However much TW give the impression of literally living for the ability to claim massive victimhood, most don't want to be ridiculed and abused to their face, not physically beaten.

I do not tend to condone violence, and don't think that the tendency towards it is something men should be proud of. But occasionally, cable street for example, or when faced with a man who is seeking to breach every single female boundary that they can, I can't help think that a short sharp punch to the upper arm is the least they deserve.

I'm just going to leave this here. Regardless what the issue is when it comes to men as perpetrators and women as victims this always applies and gets trotted out.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

Stonewall has seriously lost it's way if it can't loudly and clearly state that lesbians have the right to same sex attraction and it is not bigotry to enforce those boundaries.

Wonder if it would be worth a complaint to the charities commission that stonewall are no longer fulfilling their charitable aims?

This. Stonewall only exists because some people experience same sex attraction. If they is now deem that to be bigoted then who is Stonewall representing?

@Jaxhog

Wouldn't it be nice if Transwomen came out against the very idea that this could be deemed reasonable by anyone? Rather than denying it as a vicious Terf rumour.

It's a bit like the WiSpa incident.

The women involved were accused of being liars, hoaxers, starting vicious rumours about transwomen because such a thing would never happen....except the thing they said happened was exactly what TRAs had been campaigning for anyway.....

Because most tw are straight males not homosexual males actually
my trans friend has said based on people they have come across in meetings etc they would assume the other way, most trans women want a relationship with a man. I assume what you said was an assumption?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The fact that Nancy Kelley, Stonewall CEO can't unequivocally state that homosexuality is acceptable any more without saying people have to consider that they may have "prejudices" they need to unpack is really quite telling.

THIS, absolutely.

@fallenwood

Because most tw are straight males not homosexual males actually my trans friend has said based on people they have come across in meetings etc they would assume the other way, most trans women want a relationship with a man. I assume what you said was an assumption?

Nope not an assumption. There’s research into this. Blanchard, but we’re not normally allowed to name the (scientific/medical) term he uses for straight tw.

Read Miranda Yardley’s articles about this. Or trail through threads on fwr, there’s plenty of links lurking about.

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

This

@DameFanny

So you’re another one who doesn’t believe the lesbians in the article? Or the tw in the article who confirm this happens? Or the links posted on this thread of collected evidence going back years that shows it does?

This

Have you read then thread? Are there any points you would care to counter?

The thing with 'enthusiastic consent' is that it applies more in the case of one off or early relationship encounters. In those situations, the only reason to have sex is desire and/or fun. If both partners aren't relatively equally into it, what is even the point, tbh.

Once you get into a long term relationship a lot of other factors apply. I think anyone who has been TTC for a longish time knows that sometimes one or both partners aren't necessarily in the mood for for sex during an ovulation window. But you both do it because your desire for the hoped for outcome is stronger than your preference to have a cup or tea and read another chapter of your book that night! So there is certainly consent but it's not especially enthusiastic. Once you know someone and have specific goals as a couple, sex may not always be enthusiastic in terms of desire and fun but there is still absolute consent.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This is a well known phenomenon, however much people like to deny it. It's not all MTF trans people, obviously, but it doesn't help anyone to pretend that a group of males (no more or less predatory than any other males) are a sacred caste who can do no wrong. These women have the right to a voice, like all victims of sexual assault and harassment.

I've been documenting the "cotton ceiling" in a thread on MN since early 2018.

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

The Twitter thread linked in the post isn't found @Ereshkigalangcleg,any clues?

@Ijustreallywantacat

If lesbians refuse even to consider transwomen as partners they'reBIGOTS.

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

I have not responded to the ridiculous leading question on the poll. But yes, I do believe that the BBC article and attitudes like this are fear-mongering, hurtful rhetoric. I sat there with my mouth agape.

It's an article that is trying, and succeeding, in making transwomen as a group people to be afraid of.

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general.

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

Do you say this every time an article about males forcing women into unwanted sexual act? Do you make the argument NAMALT then too?

The face that YOU have not experienced it, does that mean it doesn't happen and these women are liars in your mind?

Nancy Kelley has indeed made the connection between bigotry (a very oft used word by trans activists) and lesbians who express a desire to not include penises in their sex life. She stated that any lesbian who did not want to include this body type should evaluate their prejudices.

Prejudice is a very laden word that goes hand in hand at the moment with bigotry.

So, are you very comfortable with your downplaying of the fact that this happens? The 'other groups do it too' is specifically a minimising tactic and you have just used it on women who are lesbians (as you once described yourself).

The fact that it happens can no longer be denied, the appropriate reaction to this article should surely be, how do we address this to stop this from continuing. Instead, we see here on this thread the continuance of the typical:

'it doesn't happen'
'it happened?... well it was one once'
'oh.... it was twice... well, it is not a wide spread issue. And anyway, they deserved it'
'so what that it has been reported to be actually quite a wide spread issue.... it is still not enough to be an issue'
'what number will be enough to address the issue rather than just accept that it happens.... well... not this number. Try N+1'

Rather chilling to see it.

I don't believe the article did its due diligence by publishing a 'survey' run by an explicitly anti-trans organisation as if it were a proper data collection exercise, I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given and the lack of examples, I don't believe you should ignore the sexual assaults Lily Cade is alleged to have made, I don't believe we should assume transwomen are in it to hurt ciswomen.

I do believe this is the new section 28 moral panic bullshit. I was there in the 80s, when the papers were telling me lesbians would try to turn me in public loos, and that gay men were all pedophiles. I didn't believe that either.

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

this

Homosexuality is not a societal prejudice

This cannot be repeated enough. Stonewall of all organisations should be supporting this stance, not telling gay men and women (and let's face it, mainly women) that they are bigots. Oh sorry - that they should "examine their societal prejudice".

This is the language of conversion therapy.

The idea that this doesn't really happen is a particulalry nasty piece of victim blaming. Younger lesbians especially are targeted by male bodied people wearing trans clothing using that status as a sacred caste.

I'm glad some trans women feel able to speak out about this but its striking how the lefty liberal voices from my twitter feed are universally attacking and blaming the victims. These are men and women who hashtagged their little socks off to see who could #metoo and #Ibelieveher the most loudly when the perpetrators were more acceptable to them.

There can be no sacred castes in safeguarding.

@DameFanny

I don't believe the article did its due diligence by publishing a 'survey' run by an explicitly anti-trans organisation as if it were a proper data collection exercise, I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given and the lack of examples, I don't believe you should ignore the sexual assaults Lily Cade is alleged to have made, I don't believe we should assume transwomen are in it to hurt ciswomen.

I do believe this is the new section 28 moral panic bullshit. I was there in the 80s, when the papers were telling me lesbians would try to turn me in public loos, and that gay men were all pedophiles. I didn't believe that either.

It wasn’t a data collection exercise. That’s well explained in the article.

Lilly Cade isn’t the topic being discussed, the journalist is explaining where the term cotton ceiling originated from. Feel free to write your own article on Lilly Cade.

There are men out there who rape and abuse women who claim to love them and say they didn’t intend to hurt them. So the fuck what? I don’t care the intentions of my rapist, I care the result.

Now- can you answer the questions I asked?

Do you believe the lesbians in the article?
Do you believe the tw in the article who say this happens?
Do you believe the years worth of evidence that was linked up thread?

Also a forth question- please explain how the organisation you refer to as ‘anti trans’ is anti trans? No thought terminating cliches are allowed to identify as answers.

@C8H10N4O2

Homosexuality is not a societal prejudice

This cannot be repeated enough. Stonewall of all organisations should be supporting this stance, not telling gay men and women (and let's face it, mainly women) that they are bigots. Oh sorry - that they should "examine their societal prejudice".

This is the language of conversion therapy.

The idea that this doesn't really happen is a particulalry nasty piece of victim blaming. Younger lesbians especially are targeted by male bodied people wearing trans clothing using that status as a sacred caste.

I'm glad some trans women feel able to speak out about this but its striking how the lefty liberal voices from my twitter feed are universally attacking and blaming the victims. These are men and women who hashtagged their little socks off to see who could #metoo and #Ibelieveher the most loudly when the perpetrators were more acceptable to them.

There can be no sacred castes in safeguarding.

It’s red ridinghood come to life.

(I’m not going to rewrite the lines because delete happy fingers but I’m sure you can imagine)

She stated that any lesbian who did not want to include this body type should evaluate their prejudices. Prejudice is a very laden word that goes hand in hand at the moment with bigotry.

Quite.

I'm having one of those surreal moments when it occurs to me that here is a group of adult women, arguing with each other over whether a woman who is homosexual is being unjustifiably prejudiced against biological males.

We're past 'homosexuality is an aberration against God's law' as a society and we're into plain 'males have needs and it's mean and unkind for women to deny access to their bodies. And to not provide sex to males, even when it's sex they don't want, don't enjoy and aren't oriented towards'.

How subhuman do you have to see females compared to males, to be able to get confused about all this?!

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

She didn't call anyone a bigot, she didn't ask anyone to have sex with anyone else. She uses language like 'may want to consider' and 'may have' because she's asking people to consider that there are some prejudices with how we perceive people. It's obvious going to difficult to reconcile your views because how you each define 'lesbian' is different. But she is not calling anybody a bigot,or transphobic!

What part of nicely saying 'it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions' from Stonewall of all organisations, is not telling a lesbian who does not want to have sex with a male, whatever their gender, nicely that they are prejudiced?

The implication is very clear that she is saying it is problematic. Because she is clearly indicating, although very mild language has been used, that it is problematic. Therefore the inference is not incorrect to say it that the use of prejudice here can be substituted for the stronger words bigoted and phobic.

Because an organisational spokesperson has declared it is indeed a problem enough that needs a lesbian to reconsider their boundaries.

It really is not hard.

Gay actor James Dreyfus talking about the abuse towards women and gay men who disagree with gender ideology from extreme trans activists and their allies on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/DreyfusJames/status/1454427292009181188?s=20

10 minutes on Twitter, I saw these in different peoples posts. I have over 2500 similar screenshots so far. THESE are the fanatics I object to. For obvious reasons. Please don’t ask me to stand with these violent, homophobic, misogynistic extremists. As it will never happen.

There is a serious problem which needs to be addressed. People who support social justice need to call it out, not dismiss or ignore it.

I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given

It made no claim to do so. People who see what's going on know, however that is a problem. But the article clearly stated that it didn't claim that the numbers were representative.

@DameFanny

I don't believe the article did its due diligence by publishing a 'survey' run by an explicitly anti-trans organisation as if it were a proper data collection exercise, I don't believe you can establish a trend from the numbers given and the lack of examples, I don't believe you should ignore the sexual assaults Lily Cade is alleged to have made, I don't believe we should assume transwomen are in it to hurt ciswomen.

I do believe this is the new section 28 moral panic bullshit. I was there in the 80s, when the papers were telling me lesbians would try to turn me in public loos, and that gay men were all pedophiles. I didn't believe that either.

Why is everyone so hung up on the survey?

The article contains screenshots of Rachel McKinnon moaning about lesbians not wanting to 'do dick', screenshots of other TRAs saying similar, evidence about claims that Riley Dennis has made, and the CEO of the UKs largest organisation for same sex attracted people saying that lesbians wanting to exclude transwomen (ie. Male bodied people) from their dating pool might be because of 'societal prejudices'. As well as personal testimonies from a number of lesbians and transwomen.

The survey is largely irrelevant to be honest, it's clear it's happening from all the other evidence.