Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@ohdelay

I recognise that but it's the same energy that heterosexual girls face from men. Rape, abuse and ostracism sometimes happen when men get rejected, but that doesn't mean you question yourself. I'm 45 and have had my share of close encounters and physical when younger, my mates stuck by me. Being called a transphobe out of the situation wouldn't touch the sides. Young lesbians more than anyone, really ought to be getting the basics right and lesbianing. The people who need their heads wobbling are the women (and it will be women) so up their own arses on ideology and "kindness" and "right on feels good wooo" that they sacrifice their own. The men are doing what men often do, the women supporting them are equally complicit.

This reads like victim blaming.

Look at lgbt+ organisation, lesbian dating sites, lesbian groups at uni etc and all have long been infiltrated by stonewall telling them it’s transphobic to say no to transwomen.

Fuck never mind that, stonewall is in our bloody schools and has been for a long time now.

The send in very male looking tw to teach young lesbians how to be lesbians and our schools have been letting them, actually paying them to gas light our kids. Go look at the resources on safe schools alliance that stonewall put into schools.

Young lesbians don’t stand a fucking chance against that level of influence. Their minds are already conditioned to accept this bs.

I’d use stronger examples but MN don’t let us tell the truth about what this is.

I’m not against trans people per se, and obviously would like everyone to find someone they both desire and are desired by, but surely I’d be doing trans people a disservice if I didn’t apply the same standards to them that I would to literally anyone else that we don’t want to get into a place where anyone is coerced into sex they don’t want?? How would that be so controversial?

This does lead to the situation where two translesbians with penises are pretty much obliged to have sex with each other or be guilty of transphobia.

@WallaceinAnderland

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-42652947

Transwoman India Willoughby tried to pressure a man into kissing her.

From the link above:

Willoughby asked her housemates about their dating preferences, and the resulting conversation kicked off a social media storm.

"Would you go out with a transsexual woman?" she queried.

"I believe it's your choice... I would choose not to," replied the R'n'B singer Ginuwine. "That doesn't make me scared."

"You would go out with a woman?" Willoughby asked.

"Yes."

"But you wouldn't go out with a transsexual woman?"

"No."

The conversation rumbled on. When Willoughby suggested "Let's have a kiss," Ginuwine replied "no" and leaned away from her.

This quote from Willoughby (from the article) cuts to the chase:

”all this superficial stuff that you are a woman and all that sounds great and is the right thing to say. But it makes no difference if people don't believe it - that's the problem."

It is scaremongering when a national news organisation runs a whole article focusing on the behaviour of a few people from a minority group, and then people are led to believe that it is representative of that group,

Why on earth would people be led to believe the behaviour is representative of that group? Do they have trouble reading?

@Naunet

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general

This is some gaslighting bullshit. MALES, commit 98% of all sex crimes, males of all races, religions, genders and statures. How dare you try to pretend women are just as likely to be predators, just as likely to be a sex offender? That’s an incredibly offensive, misogynistic thing to say. Shame on you.

This. 100 times over.

Reprehensible misogynistic untruths.

Fact matters.

@Gwenhwyfar

"However, people should also be able to consent for whatever reason they choose.

It is not for others to say that you have to be ‘enthusiastic’. As long as the consent is freely given , it can be for any reason whatsoever."

Exactly. The 'obligation' to be enthusiastic is another kind of tyranny.

I’m sure you’re aware that the enthusiastic comes from the fries acronym.

People get pedantic when they don’t have a valid point.

Consent starts from a place of no. Enthusiastic consent is used to mean that people are 100% saying yes, not 98% yes but 2% no. It doesn’t mean they actively have to feel enthusiasm at that point. I’m not convinced I feel enthusiasm about anything really, I’m not sure it’s an emotion I’m capable of (csa, v extreme) But I am completely sure I know when I 100% want to have sex. That’s what enthusiastic consent means.

It’s not difficult to grasp. It’s the best word that fitted the acronym to explain what consent is, and yes plenty women are capable of drawing clear boundaries and don’t need an acronym, but plenty of us do find it’s helpful to have that reinforced. Because every single bit of female socialisation we experience tears down the idea women have a right to boundaries.

@BloodinGutters
It might read that way but it's not new for people to pressure women into having sex. "but you hurt my feelings" or "transphobe" should just be words and you still get to make the decision about who you sleep with. The stonewall tw thing might be going over my head as I'm pretty old, but you don't need to be taught how to be a good lesbian. If you're a lesbian, I'm guessing you're just are a lesbian and you fancy women that you fancy and you don't fancy women/men/dogs/chickens that you don't fancy. Maybe this is the issue and people are more stupid/fearful of fallout/mindless than they used to be. Maybe these political organisations telling teenagers who to sleep with should be looked at closely as in my teen years we really didn't need this level of instruction.

@SultansOfMing

Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason.

Unsure why anyone would try and argue different?

@SultansOfMing

This

Why does the TWAW agenda focus so much on lesbians who won't have sex with them? Why don't we hear even more about men (who let's face it are more numerous than lesbians) who won't have sex with a TW being called transphobes? is it by any chance because those TW still have the mentality of male privilege and think it's only women who have to subjugate to their ideas? Not a man - basically one of their own?

Be angry about how a small group of trans people are behaving in an abhorrent and abusive way but make it clear at the same time that that group does not represent the majority of trans people.

Because the most important thing when a group of women speak out about experiencing sexual abuse, and manage to do this against a lot of anger, pressure and attempts to silence them, including from vast, public funded and very wealthy groups...

is to make sure first that they are protecting the feelings and public image of male people. And really, it would be nicer and politer if they just wouldn't mind not talking about it at all. It's not very nice, but really can't they just.... I don't know, put up with it quietly and not make a fuss?

NATWALT. All lives matter.

@ArabellaScott,

You can consent because of your partner’s expectations, should you choose to.

Ultimately, anything that takes freedom from women and tries to redefine a decision other women disagree with as coercion, I am against.

People are allowed to make mad decisions or bad decisions; it is the privilege of being an adult.

As long as consent is not given through fear (real fear, not fear of a sulk), it is consent.

Whether you want to be in a relationship where you feel the obligated to have sex is a good question and one that, as an adult, you need to answer for yourself.

As is often said on MN , a woman is an adult human female, not a child who needs protecting from themselves (even if you feel it is for ‘their’ own good).

Wouldn't it be nice if Transwomen came out against the very idea that this could be deemed reasonable by anyone? Rather than denying it as a vicious Terf rumour.

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

Yes just hysterical women crying r4pe, lesbians who only want sex with female people are disgusting bigots. Welcome to 2021.

I have a friend who was born male and is now a transwoman, who has been in a relationship with a male, not a trans male, for many years. They are both in their fifties. Neither expected anything, they just hit it off. Neither would think the people interviewed in the article are lying. Neither would expect anyone in particular to sleep with them. These are examples of normal trans people/people in trans relationships, not transactivitists or abusive people who happen to be trans.

@Jaxhog

Wouldn't it be nice if Transwomen came out against the very idea that this could be deemed reasonable by anyone? Rather than denying it as a vicious Terf rumour.

Why is it just like typical male behaviour?

I see what you're saying, but where do you think that stonewall and other trans activists (as in people who are sincerely standing up for trans people) are going to put their energy - in to the small subset of trans people who do say controversial things, or articles like the BBC, which are tarnishing the reputation of transwomen as a whole? That's what transpeople deal with. That's what the marches and the campaigns are for. To fight against the rhetoric that transwomen are sexual predators. That's more important than policing what people call themselves or getting enraged about hypothetical scenarios.

It's really not OK to defend the right of trans people to prevent tarnishing of their reputation whilst attacking the right of women to defend their safety. Both should be OK. The trans activism and name calling (every debate around the opposing rights issues is NOT transphobic) is unwarranted and aggressive. Some transwomen are sexual predators. You can't possibly think that's not the case.

The situations are not hypothetical and it's disgusting to suggest that actual experiences of rape and assault are hypothetical.

Nancy Kelley and others like her are trying their best to say to you that they agree that coercing people in to sex is wrong. That's what she said. She has a different idea than you about what gender and sexuality is. Fair enough.

No, this is a very unhelpful attempt at gaslighting. If it was OK to have different ideas about what gender is, the fear which women are now experiencing would not have arisen. By attempting to force women to give up female-only spaces because a minority think that gender is different than sex is clearly NOT saying 'fair enough, we have different ideas'. It is an attempt to force your view on others. Saying that transphobia may be the reason a women who fancies women does not want to sleep with a biological male is not a 'live and let live' attitude. It is clearly paying lip service to the idea that coercing people into sex is wrong. It's very much of the 'I'm not racist but....[insert racist comment]' and no-one is being fooled.

Your views only make sense if we accept that TWAW and TMAM. You are attempting to force that belief on others. You are failing to recognise that sexual attraction hinges on how A percevies B. How B perceives themselves is absolutely irrelevant.

[quote ohdelay]@BloodinGutters
It might read that way but it's not new for people to pressure women into having sex. "but you hurt my feelings" or "transphobe" should just be words and you still get to make the decision about who you sleep with. The stonewall tw thing might be going over my head as I'm pretty old, but you don't need to be taught how to be a good lesbian. If you're a lesbian, I'm guessing you're just are a lesbian and you fancy women that you fancy and you don't fancy women/men/dogs/chickens that you don't fancy. Maybe this is the issue and people are more stupid/fearful of fallout/mindless than they used to be. Maybe these political organisations telling teenagers who to sleep with should be looked at closely as in my teen years we really didn't need this level of instruction.[/quote]
Just because it’s not new doesn’t mean it doesn’t have devastating consequences. And in this incidence the consequences are for a very small minority group-lesbians- who have the protected characteristic is being homosexual, being women and presumably the belief that sex us real- as that’s clear from Maya’s case is covered under the belief pc. It needs talked about not shut down by saying they should just tell tw to fuck off and be done with it.

Yes we need to be looking at the organisations that go into our schools who teach this ga lighty bs. Why don’t you join fwr threads on getting stonewall etc out of schools. Because despite the new d of e guidance on pshe teaching and despite ofsted themselves dropping out of the stonewall diversity champions scheme, there are numerous schools with ofsted ratings of good and outstanding that breech the d if e, that pay stonewall thousands each year, who break laws on building regulations on schools toilets and who fail miserably on safeguarding.

Read safe schools alliance info and start helping us parents these organisations out of schools. Because I can tell you as a parent it is not easy. I know all the arguments inside and out, I can quote policies and d of e and education & equality acts to school, I can point out precisely where they fail on this and still I’m stuck facing putting in a formal complaint as the informal one has been repeatedly ignored by academy seniors.

It’s very very difficult to make schools follow the guidelines. It shouldn’t be but it is.

Same old same old innit?

SOME men are violent - let's talk about VAWG
That's not fair, NAMALT, so stop talking about it.

SOME people are violent racists - Black Lives Matter
That's not fair, all lives matter.

SOME priests are child abusers - let's talk about it.
That's not fair, priests are all good a trustworthy.

SOME TW are rapists - let's talk about it.
That's not fair - you're making it up, you're transphobic.

Fortunately in the first three examples people are talking about it, and those is authority or who represent the perpetrators who act in their name, have (finally) spoke out and condemned those few.

Sadly, the in the last example, the very group that should be condemning make rapists - the charity that purports to represent lesbians, have instead effectively victim blamed - if they weren't so exclusive they wouldn't be raped. Nice.

Strange how Transmen don’t seem to be as demanding and aggressive .

@Feedingthebirds1

Why does the TWAW agenda focus so much on lesbians who won't have sex with them? Why don't we hear even more about men (who let's face it are more numerous than lesbians) who won't have sex with a TW being called transphobes? is it by any chance because those TW still have the mentality of male privilege and think it's only women who have to subjugate to their ideas? Not a man - basically one of their own?

Because most tw are straight males not homosexual males.

They want to fuck women not men. And they want recognises as women so only want to fuck women who exclusively fuck women.

I don’t get why TW aren’t attracted to straight men…after all, that’s the societal norm. They want to be seen as female, to wear female clothes, grow their hair and have breasts. They want to be able to use women’s spaces and to be accepted as a women. The fact that TW are attracted to lesbians just tells me that their sex drive is still essentially male…

Hmmm

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

So what? Just because something has not happened to you, does not mean it's not happened to anyone else. I've never been sex trafficked but that does not mean I'm unable to believe that it happens or don't care about those it happens to. Neither does it make me think that all males are sex traffickers.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

I think you must be posting on the wrong thread. No-one here is saying trans-women are not welcome in their space. Unless you mean public female-only spaces? In which case, so what? In a democracy we don't let one person speak for everyone.

@Skysblue

AIBU to think that, as Stonewall CEO believes that it’s not ok for lesbians to only be attracted to the female sex, Stonewall is homophobic??

Huge amount of the trans-activist agenda looks homophobic to me.

Yes. And not only that, if there is any logic at all it is also heterophobic and as it denies heterosexual people the right to be opposite sex attracted. You could argue it is also bi-phobic as it seems to define bi-sexual as attraction to two genders... which is meaningless because it implies a bisexual person could simultaneously be a gay man who only sleeps with gay men and trans women, or a lesbian who only sleeps with lesbians and trans men.

Nowadays if someone says they're bi-sexual you have no idea whether they are gay straight or bi!?!?!

@oakleaffy

Strange how Transmen don’t seem to be as demanding and aggressive .

Almost like the socialisation they grew up with isn’t something that magically has zero effects on their behaviour once they state they are men?

No one could have predicated that.