Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

Trans lesbians are free to date other consenting trans lesbians. But they have no right to abuse lesbian woman who choose not to date them.

@ohdelay

This is stupid and I'm amazed young people (I'm guessing it will only be the women) think they have to give their bodies to show how kind they are. Have sex with people you want to everyone else can jog on and don't get to demand why or make judgements. No still means no and pity/solidarity/whatever is going on in your head shags aren't kind, theyre pathetic. Tell them to fuck off till they stop asking

When these women do that they are raped or they face being cut off from their entire lgbt+ community. Which is detailed well in the article. Social pressure is huge. There are loads of girls who loose their virginity because of peer pressure and loads who won’t risk being seen as ‘promiscuous’ because of social pressure. Lesbians are what 1% of the UK’s female population. Which would make finding like minded friends who understand their experiences first hand or potential partners much harder than for those of who are straight. So being ostracised from their social support while receiving the social pressure that they are transphobic bigots would be huge thing, especially to younger women.

You may find it easy to tell men to fuck off but plenty don’t find that easy. Consider others experiences.

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general

This is some gaslighting bullshit. MALES, commit 98% of all sex crimes, males of all races, religions, genders and statures. How dare you try to pretend women are just as likely to be predators, just as likely to be a sex offender? That’s an incredibly offensive, misogynistic thing to say. Shame on you.

@BloodinGutters:

“When these women do that they are raped or they face being cut off from their entire lgbt+ community. Which is detailed well in the article. Social pressure is huge. There are loads of girls who loose their virginity because of peer pressure and loads who won’t risk being seen as ‘promiscuous’ because of social pressure.“

This is the dark side of identity politics. I think we should all be willing to go up and bat for one another in an ideal world.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Everyone should be able to turn sec down at any point, no questions asked.

However, people should also be able to consent for whatever reason they choose.

It is not for others to say that you have to be ‘enthusiastic’. As long as the consent is freely given , it can be for any reason whatsoever.

What kind of consent is 'unenthusiastic' yet still 'freely given'?

Curious.

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

I don’t think there needs to be any attempts. The pro trans lobbyists are doing a great job themselves.

As for your question OP, I would have thought the whole idea of being a lesbian was that you didn’t want to have sex with someone with a penis. That would include men with a penis who think they are a woman.

The likes of Nancy Kelly are doing their cause no good whatsoever.

Are people thinking that 'enthusiastic consent' means that you have to be swinging from the chandeliers every time?

@Stompythedinosaur

So is it just 'scaremongering' to discuss coercive practices perpetrated by males who identify as men? Is that OK? Or are females supposed to just sit down and shut up and put up with whatever comes their way?

Or is it only if the males identify as women that females have to stay quiet?

I am a strong feminist and have never suggested women have to "stay quiet" about anything. I do tire of the idea that I cannot be a feminist without also being an anti-trans bigot.

Of course woman should oppose anyone attempting rape. I just think it is fully disingenuous to suggest that a vulnerable sect of society are all rapists when that is clearly not the case. It is just a way to stir up hate.

Most Catholic Priests don't abuse their congregation, but there is a dynamic within the Catholic Church - secrecy, obedience, fear of letting down the community - that has historically enabled abuse.

Most trans women don't wish to pressurise women into sex. However, the concept of transphobia enables some men to use trans status to pressurise women who are vulnerable.

Stonewall were given the opportunity, but have not yet refuted any of the suggestions that same sex attraction is transphobic.

[quote Dervel]@BloodinGutters:

“When these women do that they are raped or they face being cut off from their entire lgbt+ community. Which is detailed well in the article. Social pressure is huge. There are loads of girls who loose their virginity because of peer pressure and loads who won’t risk being seen as ‘promiscuous’ because of social pressure.“

This is the dark side of identity politics. I think we should all be willing to go up and bat for one another in an ideal world.[/quote]
This isn’t and never will be an ideal world. Women don’t have the luxury of buying into an idealised version, we have to face the practicalities of the world we live in and when we don’t the most vulnerable subsets of women are sacrificed to buy our blindness.

It might be clearer for some people to grasp this from examples.

Aidan is a transman, i.e. a female who identifies as a man. Aidan is sexually attracted to women. Aidan expects straight women to consider Aidan as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to female bodies.

Tommy is also a transman. Tommy is sexually attracted to men. Tommy expects gay men to consider Tommy as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to female bodies.

Dana is a transwoman, i.e. a male who identifies as a woman. Dana is sexually attracted to men. Dana expects straight men to consider Dana as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to male bodies.

Crystal is also a transwoman. Crystal is sexuall attracted to women. Crystal expects lesbians to consider Crystal as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to male bodies. (The BBC article is about this specific situation, which seems to happen more often than most of the others, probably because lesbians' sexual preferences and boundaries have always been under attack.)

Most of us here are going to fit into one of the above groups expected to consider a trans person. Some people reading this are going to say so what, for me sexual attraction is about far more than whether someone's male or female. That's fine. But for most of the rest of us, sexual attraction is absolutely fundamentally linked to whether a potential partner is male or female.

I recognise that but it's the same energy that heterosexual girls face from men. Rape, abuse and ostracism sometimes happen when men get rejected, but that doesn't mean you question yourself. I'm 45 and have had my share of close encounters and physical when younger, my mates stuck by me. Being called a transphobe out of the situation wouldn't touch the sides. Young lesbians more than anyone, really ought to be getting the basics right and lesbianing. The people who need their heads wobbling are the women (and it will be women) so up their own arses on ideology and "kindness" and "right on feels good wooo" that they sacrifice their own. The men are doing what men often do, the women supporting them are equally complicit.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Are people thinking that 'enthusiastic consent' means that you have to be swinging from the chandeliers every time?

Yes, that's more or less what 'enthusiastic' means. I tried to argue this was silly on a past thread and I was just berated for being a bad lover. It definitely is how it's understood by many people.

"What kind of consent is 'unenthusiastic' yet still 'freely given'?"

When you freely consent to something, but you're not enthusiastic of course.

"However, people should also be able to consent for whatever reason they choose.

It is not for others to say that you have to be ‘enthusiastic’. As long as the consent is freely given , it can be for any reason whatsoever."

Exactly. The 'obligation' to be enthusiastic is another kind of tyranny.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-42652947

Transwoman India Willoughby tried to pressure a man into kissing her.

From the link above:

Willoughby asked her housemates about their dating preferences, and the resulting conversation kicked off a social media storm.

"Would you go out with a transsexual woman?" she queried.

"I believe it's your choice... I would choose not to," replied the R'n'B singer Ginuwine. "That doesn't make me scared."

"You would go out with a woman?" Willoughby asked.

"Yes."

"But you wouldn't go out with a transsexual woman?"

"No."

The conversation rumbled on. When Willoughby suggested "Let's have a kiss," Ginuwine replied "no" and leaned away from her.

Aidan is a transman, i.e. a female who identifies as a man. Aidan is sexually attracted to women. Aidan expects straight women to consider Aidan as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to female bodies.

However, social conditioning means that Aidan is less likely to demand things of other people.

Tommy is also a transman. Tommy is sexually attracted to men. Tommy expects gay men to consider Tommy as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to female bodies.

But Tommy has little expectation that a man would simply do what they are told

Dana is a transwoman, i.e. a male who identifies as a woman. Dana is sexually attracted to men. Dana expects straight men to consider Dana as a potential partner and gets angry if they say no because they are not sexually attracted to male bodies.

But Dana has little expectation that a man would simply do what they are told.

There is just one dynamic where one partner routinely makes assumptions about a right to sex.

It's just another way for men to sexually abuse women.

@BloodinGutters well I for one don’t mind going up to bat or support you however you need me to.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Are people thinking that 'enthusiastic consent' means that you have to be swinging from the chandeliers every time?

People are being deliberately obtuse.

I’ve had sex when I’ve been a bit meh about it, a bit tired at the start. But I’m still 100% sure I’m up for consenting. But at that point I’m only consenting to cuddling and kissing. Even by the point I’m 100% sure I want to consent to sex it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m ready to turn cartwheels about it. Sometimes while my body is turned on I’m definitely ticking other things over in my brain, I’ve never been great at being 100% present for anything, Adhd brain and all. But I am 100% sure about consenting, because I want the intimacy or because I really want to orgasm and have zero interest in doing so on my own. Because I know I want how I’ll feel after it.

I’m willing to bet that’s true of other women at times, or that they are 100% sure about consenting but they are doing so because they want to get pregnant, not because they are super pumped about sex at that exact point. Or similar.

It’s completely possible to not be over the moon excited about sex but 100% enthusiastic about consenting to sex.

Enthusiastic consent just means anyone is 100% sure they are consenting and consenting for their own reasons, not because of social pressure or expectations of a partner. It means if someone is 95% sure but 5% uncertain they should recognise that’s the point they should be saying no.

Consent starts at the place of no. Anything less than a 100% yes is a no, and that’s not consent.

That’s what the phrase is meant to mean. I think people like to be deliberately obtuse on this point.

@Chocolatewheatos

I am very pro-trans rights and I totally see why they feel the way they do. They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed. But no one is ever entitled to sex under any circumstances.

But they have a penis. And the vast majority of lesbians don't want to have sex with people with penises.

I don't want to have sex or a sexual relationship with someone who thinks they're a woman (even if they've got a penis).

And neither me nor the lesbians are bigoted. My choice.

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

This is pretty much spot on. Some people who behave without respect for others happen to be trans. It isn't all trans people.

Be angry about how a small group of trans people are behaving in an abhorrent and abusive way but make it clear at the same time that that group does not represent the majority of trans people.

OP It only takes 10 minutes on twitter to prove your statement wrong
'Choke on my girl dick"
"I'll fuck the prejudice out of all the tef lesbians" OP, you are missing the point here - the people doing this are vile, they do NOT* represent the majority of trans people.

I don't get why transactivists aren't up in arms over these abusive members of their community, shouting loudly "not in our name, this is not okay, and we'll publicly shame and excommunicate anyone who tries this shit" the transactivists are the abusive members of the community - as you were clearly not aware of this, yet should be, it is now the time to listen more to normal trans voices who are NOT accusing anyone of lying!

No, I am not trans in case you are wondering, I was born 100 percent biological woman, I am just fed up of the cognitively challenged people confusing issues and causing more harm than good.

• Nancy Kelley, CEO of Stonewall, gave thus quote to the BBC:

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.*

But "men" are an entire group aren't they? So lesbians are only lesbians because because their sexual attractions have been shaped by societal prejudices?! Skating very close to the basis of conversion therapy there, Nancy!