Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

@DriftingBlue Well to my daughter it’s no different to when she asked why a child at school has a teacher all to himself. I explained the child has additional needs and requires support. I encouraged her to be kind, helpful and understanding of that child.
At swimming if a boy over eight is with his mum she would realise the reason is he requires support or is more vulnerable.

@LolaSmiles

Totally this and women wonder why all men grow up to so entitled and abusive of women (and others). This entirely. It's the drip drip drip of entitlement to boys and the drip drip drip that tells girls to put up, shut up, and have their boundaries ignored.

Mum feels uncomfortable sending boy into men's changing = "don't worry DS, you don't have to go in there. Come and have access to women and girls spaces. Who cares about your female peers feeling uncomfortable? Who cares if girls your age feel put off sport and swimming because they don't want to change in front of boys? If they are uncomfortable then the girls should change somewhere else or use one of the limited cubicles. The most important thing here is you realise that what you want comes first and if girls feel uncomfortable then they need to suck it up, smile and be kind".

Girl feels uncomfortable having boys changing into the female changing = "don't be so up tight, boys aren't a threat. Boys are more at risk in the men's than you are by having a boy in the female changing. Can't you cover up? Can't you use a cubicle? Can't you put a onesie on and then get changed somewhere else so that the boy can change in the female changing? You're so selfish wanting to feel comfortable getting changed with fellow girls/women. Why can't you just be nice about it. Either smile nicely and realise your boundaries and feelings don't matter, or kindly remove yourself from the situation so that the boy can have access to the female spaces"

Twenty years later she posting on Mumsnet and being told to LTB.

🙄

@BananaPB very sad but I am not surprised.
I think a lot of mums look at their little angels and forget what boys behave like around girls the same age.

At swimming if a boy over eight is with his mum she would realise the reason is he requires support or is more vulnerable.

But reading some of the mothers here, that's not true, is it? Perfectly normal boys whose mothers think they haven't reached puberty yet...they could really be any age.

The point is: there is a space for girls and they should feel comfortable using it. And if that means no boys, that is their right.

As pp said, women have campaigned their socks off for this. It is not too much to expect boys and their parents to respect that, and they can lobby for safe ways for their sons to get changed.

Do they have a single occupant bathroom that is not attached to the locker room? If so I would use that. Alternately he could wear his swimsuit under some sweats and then just wrap up in a towel on the drive home if it's not far.

@Instagram

From this thread, it is very clear that most of the older boys in the women's changing room are not there because they have an additional need.

They're there because their mums have decided their boys have more right to women's spaces than the actual girls do. And girls need to shut up and "be kind".

Women's sex segregated spaces are not the thing you teach your daughter to "be kind" about. So dont do that.

@julieca

It is perfectly possible for a boy to leer sexually at a girl.

Yup. My breasts grew in at 9, and I was well-endowed from that age. Going to school with boys was awful and I begged my mum every day, asking why I couldn't go to an all-girls school instead. I don't for one second buy that they didn't know what they were doing, either. I'm not saying they're predators because I'm not deranged, but they're 100% capable of cognisant sexualisation. That's the part that so many people here are missing.

I'm not seeing your point Journeyofthedragons.

The drip drip drip of what girls and boys are taught about their place in society starts from birth.

If people think it's acceptable to teach girls that they should budge up, accept boys in their spaces, or stay home then they need to take a look in the mirror. Teaching girls that they should ignore feelings of being uncomfortable because boys come first is just another way of teaching girls that their boundaries don't matter.

Too many women on here are feminist until it inconveniences them slightly.

Ds is nearly 12, his additional needs mean he still needs supervision when changing. I wouldn’t dream of taking him into the ladies though even though I know he doesn’t pose any risk because others don’t know that and dignity for him AND others says you don’t do it.

We use the disabled facilties and if somewhere doesn’t have disabled changing facilties then they don’t get our business!

Too many women on here are feminist until it inconveniences them slightly
Exactly and it's depressing.

Girls should be expected to feel uncomfortable, get over it, or go and make alternative changing arrangements that don't involve using the female changing area because some mums think their boy comes above all others. It's depressing.

@LolaSmiles

I'm not seeing your point Journeyofthedragons.

The drip drip drip of what girls and boys are taught about their place in society starts from birth.

If people think it's acceptable to teach girls that they should budge up, accept boys in their spaces, or stay home then they need to take a look in the mirror. Teaching girls that they should ignore feelings of being uncomfortable because boys come first is just another way of teaching girls that their boundaries don't matter.

I was agreeing with you Lola, I was referencing the hypothetical girl who was encouraged to be kind and let males use their safe space.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Our pool has men's, women's and a separate family changing room for those who need to be with their kids of opposite sex.

I would ask your pool if they can accommodate something like this or if there's the demand for it. However it's been like these over here for over 20 years and we're not a very progressive bunch so I thought this was standard every where.

Other than that, wear swimming stuff under clothes? So it's a quick pass through the men's for your son, and I'm sure he can get dressed on the way back out of the pool easier if he just takes a wet bag with him.

@AudacityBaby Awful for you. I remember similar behaviour towards the one girl at our school whose breasts grew very early.

My son just turned 8 and insists on changing in the men's. I can't convince him otherwise. It does make me a bit uneasy when he is out of sight in the company of strange men, but there are usually other boys getting changed too so I am getting used to it.

Our swimming pool had men's women's, and family changing areas. Having all that, there were still women that would insist on taking their boys into the females changing room.

I see what you mean now Journeyofthedragons and totally agree.

The poor hypothetical girl has a string of unhealthy relationships in her teens where she ignores her boundaries because her boyfriend puts pressure on and she has grown up learning that uncomfortable feeling should be ignored. She doesn't report the dick pics because they're just banter and she has realised she needs to learn to take a joke. She goes to university and ignores her gut instinct, because after all she's wrong to feel uncomfortable about the new guy in the group. She's so silly worrying about nice guys. Turns out he isn't so nice.

It's so worrying that there are mothers on this thread who see no issue with telling girls to be kind and shut up when you're uncomfortable.

Honestly, I'd recommend that any mums of girls who are seeing this frequently campaign to have women and girls-only sessions, and a good lot of them.

I really don't think that is the solution. My local Council swimming pools already have so few sessions available to adult non disabled men it's not worth getting a membership for. For me we just need to look at the rules for the pool, remember our birthday and check between our legs for our sex and then obey the rules appropriately

Its because they see their boys as still babies and forget what it was like being a girl around boys that age.

Because an 8 year old boy and his mum going into the women’s is a lot less inappropriate than an adult woman going in to the wrong sex room.

Why though? I know I’m being nit-picky here, but “inappropriate” usually means “makes people uncomfortable” and I really fail to see why it is objectively worse for men/boys to have to deal with women in their changing spaces than it is for girls/women to have to deal with boys.

Also there would potentially be more risk to the adult mum and boy going in to a room naked men. There is no risk to girls and women from a mum and 8 yr old boy discretely using the changing room.

If an adult woman is at risk, a lone teenage (say 14yo) boy would be at more risk, but I hope nobody would advocate 14yo boys using women’s changing rooms. In fact, boys and young men are at a reasonably high risk of assault by men throughout their lives. But that doesn’t mean we give them unlimited access to women’s spaces.

And there is a risk to girls of an 8yo boy using the girl’s changing rooms - a minority of 8yo boys do stare and comment on girls bodies and an even smaller minority will sexually harass them. It’d be lovely to think that all 8yo aren’t a risk and that all mothers would make sure they behaved discretely. But that simply isn’t the case.

And that’s without considering the girls who self-exclude from these spaces if there are boys in their changing rooms.

As I said a few pages ago, I’m not advocating either scenario. I think that family changing is the appropriate solution to the problem.

I'm so glad my new leisure centre has a big changing area for everybody with only cubicles; some small, some big, cubicles for parents and babies, special needs, area for parking prams/wheelchairs and cubicles with showers. It's working really well.

@julieca

Its because they see their boys as still babies and forget what it was like being a girl around boys that age.

Your being one sided here. Not all 8 year old boys are predators FFS.

@julieca @AudacityBaby

I was bullied at 9/10 yo by 2 boys in my class because of my big breasts I still stand by my previous comment: 7/8 is the cutoff. Once children start going through pre-puberty they shouldn't be in the opposite changing rooms.

Another poster gave a great suggestion: the boy can have the swimsuit under some joggers so it's easy to change and then just quickly take the wet swimsuit off in a bathroom stall and put the joggers back on for the way back home. 5 minutes tops!

Complete change of theme here (although agree children should be in own sex changing room from 8) but this thread reminded me of when Ds was 8 and I first sent him to get changed alone.

He came out declaring he'd lost his swimming trunks and did it matter. When I explained that it did indeed matter, he explained he'd done this (acted out kicking leg into air) and his trunks had shot into the air and disappeared.
After being sent back to find them, he returned with trunks, but also a huge gash dripping with blood on his arm that he's cut whilst climbing the lockers to retrieve trunks from off the top.
So, it's wasn't other changing room users I was concerned about from then on, but Ds's own prattish behaviour. He still got sent to use the men's on his own mind.