Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

"It really wouldn't bother me if he was up to age 12 in the women's changing rooms."

I can't see many year 7 girls being happy with it.

Firstly thanks all for the replies. I haven't read all as on lunch hour but a quick skim shows a huge variety of opinions and actually I'm grateful because it's a reflection of my own confusion. Changing gyms isn't an option; the number with swim vacancies is ridiculously small. The group lessons are very small 4-5 maximum) and thus far it's all mums (DS is the only boy usually). I haven't seen nor been made aware of a specific policy and yes there are cubicles available within the ladies area for privacy. I disagree with those of you saying put him in a onesie and change at home I'm afraid. Firstly, we pay £ for the lessons and use of facilities which includes showers and changing. Don't get me wrong we don't pay more the females, but we don't pay less either and I don't want to raise a son in a world where he is a second class citizen because of his sex. Women have fought that battle for long enough to understand it's not acceptable to inflict on the opposite sex. Secondly, it's a forty minute drive home which will be very uncomfortable in wet clothes. Thirdly, it doesn't actually solve the issue of him coming in/going out through the women's! In terms of what he thinks about it - he doesn't. He has never mentioned it. He is comfortable with the human body - living in a house full of medics will do that for you I'm afraid especially when we also care for elderly parents so he couldn't give two hoots. It has raised an interesting question though of the gym. This isn't actually "my" problem to solve is it really? It's about having safe spaces for women, and men, and those who need access to facilities for both so what I will do is ask them their solution.

8yo girls at school change separately from boys the same age and should be granted the same courtesy in public changing rooms for the same reasons that they are separated at school.

If there is a pool with unisex changing locally then it will best to change if your son can't cope. Even for NT boys the process may be slow in the beginning but with practice is gets better,

@KurtWildeWitchOfTheWoods

When you start making curfews for men you're going backwards, not forwards. Historically, people of colour had enforced curfews and segregation. And they fought against it for good reason. Feminism isn't about segregation and women's rights and safety being more important than men's, it's about inclusivity and acceptance.

All I'm reading here is a load of men hating harpies saying the PHYSICAL SAFETY of little boys is less important than the feelings of a women and girls in a bloody cubicle!!

Most of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I disagree, I and many other women already have curfews, and children.

I already have to alter my behaviour to suit men.

Violence against women is on the rise. Let’s sort it out where the problem is.

Men are the ones committing the violence, not children or women.

I have 2 ds’s they have a right to get changed for swimming feeling safe. So rather than inconvenience girls, boys and women. Send the men away.

My boy children have a right to feel safe too. It’s the men that are the problem.

Once men start speaking out this issues won’t be a problem.

Surely if everyone campaigned for safer spaces for boys to change that would have the knock of effect of safer spaces for girls. By ignoring and belittling boys safety you are part of the problem because then mums feel they have no other option.

Surely no one would say that an 8 year old should be left at home after-school with no childcare? So why is it ok for them to go into a male changing-room on their own without supervision, often with direct access to water? The point is about children who are of an age to generally require adult supervision being removed from that supervision.

Precisely because it is public, with you standing outside the door and for such a short time that the risk is very low indeed. But even if you aren’t happy to accept that risk, why not go into the men’s with him? Why insist that it is women and girls who need to compromise their dignity and privacy?

The risk may be low but it's not insignificant. Many boys have been assaulted who had parents standing outside waiting for them.

And I'm not insisting that women and girls need to compromise their dignity and privacy. Only that it's unsafe for young boys to use public changing-rooms alone. I've said over and over again that other solutions are needed.

If you wouldn't leave them home alone by themselves, they shouldn't be in a public changing-room on their own.

@G5000

No take the men’s rights away. Until they can be trusted to speak up for more vulnerable.

We'll be arguing back and forth forever on a thread that OP left after her first post.

I've taught my sons to respect women and they do. I've taught them about boundaries and they respect them.

What I won't teach them is that women's rights are more important than theirs.

And I won't put their physical safety below someone's feelings.

I don't care whether people like that or not. No one is wanting to take women's rights away, but we're talking about an 8yo boy in a cubicle changing with his mum. Not an adult man parading naked in the women's changing rooms. I think some of you have forgotten that.

I'm also wondering where these curfews are, I've never seen them.

OP, i think the best solution is asking the staff at the pool, but also maybe you could have a quick poll of the other parents and find out if it really is a problem for this class?

How would it be if he changed in the men's loo? or is it in the changing room?

OP, we have found the solution in the meantime. You can go to men's and supervise him there.

Mums accompanying their sons into the men's is an excellent suggestion. Mums have seen willies before and can be polite and avert their eyes, after all. If the conflict is between the privacy and dignity of adult men vs girls, I know whose needs I consider greater.

How about regular 'man free' hours at the pool, some coinciding with lesson times? Pools often have 'women only' swimming sessions but what's being identified here is that there is also, in addition, a wider need for 'adult man free' time, to benefit children.

Until the problem of bad men becomes all men's problem to deal with, in terms of the superficial inconvenience that arises when accommodations to protect others are made, good men will never adopt it as their problem to solve. Depressingly.

@KatharinaRosalie

OP, we have found the solution in the meantime. You can go to men's and supervise him there.

Because that wouldn’t make women feel uncomfortable at all.

@KurtWildeWitchOfTheWoods

Wait, aren't you also saying that boys shouldn't be going into the mens' changing rooms because it's dangerous? That's also a tiny minority that you're alluding are all the same...

There's a massive difference between a young child and an adult man. You're actually ridiculous. Of course he's likely to be perfectly safe in there, but what if he feels vulnerable or worried? If you're not interested in his physical safety then how about his feelings? Or should he just suck it up because he's a boy?

Comparing little boys to adult males is so far off the stupid scale it's unreal.

Its only a tiny minority of men who sexually abuse women. But according to some on this thread they should all have a curfew just for being men!! So no, of course they're not all the same.

I remember in school when the majority of the class had behaved and just 2 or 3 had played up. The teacher kept everyone back though. This often backfires. Of everyone is going to get lumped in with the ones who cause trouble, what's the point of being good? It's exactly the same when you start considering curfews for all men. Guaranteed it won't have the effect some of you seem to think it will. Psychology says if you tell a good person they're a monster enough times, they become it.

No, he shouldn't just suck it up. His parent should identify a way to manage the situation that isn't nicking the space designated for girls and women.

(I wasn't comparing little boys to adult males, btw. Just pointing out that you can't sneer at the logic that girls don't know what kind of 8 year old boy they're getting when your argument for nicking their space is that boys don't know what kind of man they're getting.)

All I'm reading here is a load of men hating harpies saying the PHYSICAL SAFETY of little boys is less important than the feelings of a women and girls in a bloody cubicle!!

Why isn't the solution to ask the gym to have a member of staff in the mens or for mum to supervise changing in the mens?

The feelings of womens and girls should be the priority in the female changing area.

Because that wouldn’t make women feel uncomfortable at all.

Well we have had plenty of boy mums on this thread telling us that safety tops feelings..

Those suggesting women go into the men’s with their sons which many women would be deeply uncomfortable with, Does that woman’s feelings not count? Do only the feelings of women and girls in the female changing room matter? What about women who this would cause issues for due to religion?

What I won't teach them is that women's rights are more important than theirs.

Scenario: 8 year old boy uses the women's changing room because the men's isn't safe. His mum is there. 8, 9 and 10 year old girls in that changing room feel uncomfortable and ask that he not be allowed in there.
Boy's mum says "but it's not safe to go in the men's on his own"
Everyone nods. This is clear.

Solution 1: he continues to use the women's space and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls have to put up with it. (In reality they stop going swimming)

Solution 2: they find another solution which does not impinge on the girl's area (maybe: using the accessible rooms? a family room? just not the women's)

In which of these scenarios are the boy's rights curtailed in any way? Is there one of these scenarios where the boy gets what he wants and the girls lump it? Is there one of these scenarios where the girls get what they want and the boy lumps it?

The feelings of womens and girls should be the priority in the female changing area

Safety as well as feelings (of women and girls).

No they don’t matter if there is a safeguarding risk for boys. I’d rather my daughter put up with discomfort than another child endure what my son went through.

Those suggesting women go into the men’s with their sons which many women would be deeply uncomfortable with, Does that woman’s feelings not count? Do only the feelings of women and girls in the female changing room matter? What about women who this would cause issues for due to religion?

bing bing bing! that is exactly the point. We aren't forcing these women into the men's because it makes them uncomfortable but we will let the boys into the girl's space even though it makes them uncomfortable

Girls are getting the shitty end of the stick here

Those suggesting women go into the men’s with their sons which many women would be deeply uncomfortable with, Does that woman’s feelings not count? Do only the feelings of women and girls in the female changing room matter? What about women who this would cause issues for due to religion?

Maybe those kids' dads could take them swimming? Or they could ask another mum who's going in anyway to supervise their boy too?

There might not be one, perfect 'fits all' solution. So what? Choose a different one.

I’d rather my daughter put up with discomfort than another child endure what my son went through

i'd rather my daughters not have to put up with that, thank you very much. Find a different solution.

(i am deeply sympathetic for what happened to your son, that should never have happened. The answer isn't to make girls uncomfortable)

At my DS's swimming class the policy is 8 years and over.

Why isn't the solution to ask the gym to have a member of staff in the mens or for mum to supervise changing in the mens?

Because you are asking the gym to magic up the money to employ someone extra.
Having a woman in the mens changing room is the same as having a man in the female changing!!!

the question is - what do the boys do (we have established that there are safeguarding issues around letting them use the men's alone)