Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

I didn’t take my boys to our gym pool without DH for this reason. At 8 they were too old to go into the ladies changing room, but too young to be alone in the mens. When on my own I took them to our leisure centre which had unisex and family cubicles. Imo young boys are at as much risk from predatory males as girls and there’s no way I would risk it.

Thankfully the changing rooms at my local swimming pool are unisex (there are other pools in other locations for people who have a problem with this).
This makes it much easier for me as a mum with boys. Are there any other pools nearby which have a changing room like this OP? To make your life easier.

Either way, your DS is a little boy and will be in a cubicle anyway. He’s no threat to anybody.
My 8 year old DS has ASD and would really struggle on his own, so if the changing rooms weren’t unisex he’d be coming in with me anyway. It’s just great that I don’t ever have to explain myself.

@TonTonMacoute

That was in response to the people saying "our 8 year old boys are not predators and should be allowed in the women's"

It isnt about them being predators. It's about them being male and girls their age are trying to have in a woman only space.

Sorry but mums taking boys need to find another solution. I'm a single mum of 2 boys. I find another solution. I do not intrude on women and girls changing.

@Branleuse oh I agree. I’d not send my 7 year old into a male changing room alone anytime soon. I’d have to find an alternative plan, and I do think there is risk to lone young boys that pools should better cater for.

My point was for the people who are not understanding why an 8 year old boy in a female changing room is an issue at all. I wonder if they might be missing the context of a wider trend towards intrusions into female only spaces (trans women in female prisons, mixed sex toilets in schools, male head of women’s crisis organisations etc).

I think for female only spaces to be effective there have to be clear boundaries about who can and can’t access them. When these are blurred then they are more easily accessed by people who should not be in them.

I 100% accept this prevents an issue for young boys safety in this context though.

At 8 he should change in the men's. This shows how the vocal complaints about unisex changing villages don't work for families. Family changing rooms are so much better

it would not be good for him to be exposed to all this naked flesh.
Horrors! Naked flesh!
Yeah I think I place potential actual physical harm over potential feelings too.
What age in sex appropriate changing room? Puberty I guess, which is no set age.
Just… common sense like people used to use. Before social media melted everyone’s brain.

that's right - it's girls against boys and the boys have to have their way because fucking hell girls can't be allowed anything including their own dignity and privacy

I don't fucking care that your boy has to put on a onsie and a dressing gown (i am accepting that people don't want to send them in the men's). But they should not be going in the girls. What is it? that finally the girls have something for themselves and poor fucking boys have to fight for it? THEN FIGHT FOR IT.

This is @Comedycook for anyone who denies that some of the mothers of sons don't give a flying fuck about the dignity of girls:

I do understand that and it's far from ideal but in a straight choice of the feelings of one set of children and the actual physical safety of the other set...the latter takes priority imo.

Your O is fucked up.

unisex/family changing?

thats what i would use to be honest! I would not be happy in sending my 8 year old into the changing rooms alone

dryrobe.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhpTqifTs8wIVx7HtCh11KQEIEAAYASAAEgK9y_D_BwE

costume under towelling dryrobe to pool.

Dryrobe over costume out of pool.

No changing required.

Agree with other posters, OP. Your DS shouldn't be in there. At 9 years old I was already in puberty, I wore a C cup bra. If boys had been in a changing room at that age, I'd have stopped swimming.

I also am a little bit sceptical of how many boys are apparently incapable of sorting themselves out without a parent, at 9-10. My dad used to take my sister and I swimming and I'd be responsible for both of us from 6 years old, as he couldn't come into our changing room (and didn't want us in the mens'). I know that girls often mature faster but I do think this is an example of socialisation - they're expected to, so they get on with it.

Women on this thread have expressed their discomfort and explained the discomfort of their DD. After this point you shouldn’t take him in the females again because no woman should be forced to feel uncomfortable in a female only space. You need to solve your problem but not by moving the problem/uncomfortableness to others.

@Branleuse

Tbh i do think 8 is a reasonable guideline but an unreasonable hard rule. I do not think it appropriate that anyone would complain about a prepubescent boy who was causing no trouble and was supervised as there are bound to be people who need exceptions because as i said, none of my kids would i trust to go into a changing room and get changed without adult supervision. You may not like it, and I may not like the provisions provided but providing noones making trouble then try as i may, I cannot relate to anyone who thinks an 8 year old supervised boy is somehow a threat.

Nobody thinks the 8 year old boy is a threat. This is about the young girls who might feel embarrassed being naked in front of a boy I'm don't get why some people find that so difficult to understand. I have a 9 year old boy but he changes in the male changing room after swimming lessons, while my DD and me go to the women's. I do understand that in a public leisure centre, as opposed to private swimming lessons it's a different situation, but like PPs have said it's up to the parent to find a solution. That solution does not involve making young girls uncomfortable in what should be a female only space. The best option would be family changing rooms and worst case scenario I'd wrap my son in a big towel and he could change in the car, because mine and my boys convenience doesn't trump girls need for privacy.

Horrible to have to point it out but there are abusers aged eight and under, mostly male, some female.
Their horror stories usually begin with their own exposure to abuse.... and to ignore this is simply to perpetuate it.

I cannot believe what grown women are saying about an 8 year old CHILD! He is not a 30 year old rapist, nor a horny 15 year old.
Everyone on here saying that we should only care about the safeguarding of girls and women should bloody well be ashamed of themselves. I am all for womens rights and to have safe spaces, but he is a child and sending him into an unknown environment, with strange naked men is surely more damaging and unsafe for him than to be with his mother in a cubicle.

I simply think the 'whatever' attitude towards the safeguarding of small boys on here is eye-opening.

I don't think that's true. I think most people on MN want all children to be safe. But you look at the world around you, you see how crap it still is for women, how so many men still think it's fine to shit all over their boundaries and you think no. The problem of adult male sexual predation should not be solved by women having to suffer.

I think gyms and leisure centres should have male changing, female changing and family changing (and obviously disabled changing) to avoid any of this being an issue. But making women budge up to deal with a male problem is not fair.

is it? that finally the girls have something for themselves and poor fucking boys have to fight for it? THEN FIGHT FOR IT

You sound totally unhinged. You do realise we're talking about pre pubescent children?

The cut off is usually 8. After this it is the men's changing room, change at the side of the pool ( big overhead towel poncho and or onesie works for this) or find a different pool. Ds has a learning disability and hasn't been able to use certain pools since he was 8 because of this since not all pools have unisex accessible facilities. Most adult women wouldn't mind but 8 year old girls may mind him being in there.

Thank you to the mothers of boys who respect female-only spaces. Your boys will grow up better men for it.

public places. If a woman or a girl feels uncomfortable with an 8 year old boy who has done nothing wrong and just wants to get changed for swimming, then I honestly and absolutely do not prioritise that over my childrens actual safety, and id no sooner send my 8 year old boy into a changing room of adult men, than i would my 8 year old daughter.
if you dont like it, then dont use a public swimming pool

So your view is...

"My son goes into the girls' space because it's not safe for him to go elsewhere and it's vital that he goes swimming even if it means using facilities that don't belong to him. If that makes girls unsafe then I don't care and they should just stop going swimming because clearly it isn't vital that they go swimming like it is for my son."

?

Jesus H Christ.

There’s no way I’d send my 8 year old into a men’s changing room on his own.

I felt uncomfortable about my son changing by himself in swimming pools for the same reason - but the reality is that children his age do it all the time. Its a quick thing and if he's doing it for a class or while other families are swimming he won't be alone. Just wait at the door for him - you can call out to him and make sure he is OK. But its really not appropriate for an almost 9 year old to be in the ladies changing rooms at his age. Its not just the women - some young girls or girls with special needs might need help with changing and not only might there not be enough space in changing rooms for two people - but they might start changing feeling safe and then have a 9 year old walk in while they are naked. I am surprised you have managed to get to almost 9 to be honest, most people think any child over 8 is too old.

Our gun used to have family swim time on the weekends…great. Not so great was it was always the mother’s left you change all the kids including the boys (yes I saw fathers with these groups). 8 was the cut off but there were boys over that age always running about and no cubicles to change in. I had to change uncomfortably us every a towel after I heard one of the saying to his friend about another lady ‘I saw that woman’s boobies!’ A sign was. ineffective as it was never enforced.

[quote ImUninsultable]@Branleuse

Exactly. You think children dont count and dont deserve single sex spaces.

I am astonished. I genuinely am. I worry for your children if this is your attitude.

Children do count. Young girls deserve single sex spaces. Boys deserve safety too. If you do not want to send them into a single sex space then you dry them poolside and put on a onesie and take them home to change.

You do not take them into a single sex space for women and girls because he is not a woman or a girl and single sex spaces matter. Even children need to learn that and follow that rule.

Children matter. The privacy of young girls in a women's changing room trumps your son.[/quote]
you actually feel WORRY for my children? Seriously?? omg
because I think its more important that I wouldnt have sent send my autistic and ADHD little boys into a mens changing room with grown adult men that we dont know. My little boy who we had to teach not to go up and hug people at that age? Maybe youd think that I needed to provide you, a complete stranger with a doctors note or maybe a copy of his EHCP? Maybe I need to remind you that grown men target little boys as well as little girls. That men dont even need to be paedos to assualt children, or photograph them for the internet. The stats about male violence or abuse.
Or maybe, you can stick your worry for my children where the sun doesnt shine. I am not interest in bothering you or your kids. My priority is keeping my own children safe. My own kids feelings of privacy and dignity are important, but theyre not as important as their actual safety and supervision, and your kids are your own concern.
These changing rooms with cubicles are clearly the answer to the dignity and privacy issue.

Not all disabilities are visible and its sad that this has to actually be spelled out at this stage of the thread. You do not know why a mother might want her 8 year old with her. That child might well have higher care needs than the average 8 year old, or that child or a close family member might well have been abused and their comfort and reassurance is also important
If you were talking about something like the post above where someone says an adult man took his daughters into the womens changing, then absolutely thats outragrous, but a bloody kid of 8. Mind your own business. Exceptions to these rules usually exists for good reason. Some kids of 8 are sensible, would use a cubicle. Would be quick and would pack all their stuff properly. Many kids of 8 are not at that stage and reasonable adjustments are a legal requirement if they need supervision, and you as a customer have no right to the medical details or reasons of other customers. If you dont like the facilities then you also have the option of not using them or putting a onesie at the side of the pool or campaigning for better family facilities.

God its embarrassing to think such petty people exist that would complain about an occasional bloody 8 year old. No idea how you cope with the beach

i am talking about, yet again, the assumption that girls simply put up with boys being in their space.

Yes, the boys apparently can't go in the men's. I get it. But the answer isn't to go in the girls, is it? It is to approach the pool management, point out the problem and get a solution that suits the girls and the boys.

The women have their solution to not exposing young girls (and women) to potentially predatory males when in a state of undress. That is as it should be. Now we need a solution for the boys. That does not take anything from the girls. It isn't about seeing young boys as predatory, nor is it about prudish elderly ladies not wanting to expose their flabby bits to boys (although that is a valid concern that should also be considered).

It is about affording the girls and women in their own changing rooms, the courtesy of not putting boys in there.

And yes, this whole thread has exposed a seam of absolutely shocking unconcern about girls because, shock, boys aren't being allowed to just waltz into their changing rooms and do what they like. Shocking.

And of course this leads to the wider point about sex segregated spaces - should we have them? What do we want, going forward? totally sex segregated spaces, or universally used spaces which afford privacy by means of cubicles etc?

There's a lot of straw-manning going on here. Posters claiming in faux outrage that people who want the rule observed that boys over 8 don't go in the ladies', are saying 'send them into the men's'. We're not. We're saying keep them out of the ladies.

There is a wider social issue reflected here, which I find interesting. The recognition and willingness to talk about the fact that some adult men are sexual predators, violent or threatening in other ways, and we cannot know which ones they are.

There is an interesting reflexive response by some, many, too many people of 'oh well, everyone who feels worried or vulnerable can bundle into the ladies', it's nice and safe in there'. So with trans-women and the gender non-binary people in, well everything that's sex-segregated, so with boys at swimming pools. Thus destroying the very place in which they sought refuge and turning it into a unisex 'everyone except some men', while also removing the ability to challenge any man or boy who wishes to enter, whatever his motivation.

Women and girls, including pubescent and teenage girls, as the universal mother figure; soft, kind, caring, welcoming. Women and girls as the universal solvent for everyone's fears and problems. Truly we are all the mother goddess .

There is a real and burning issue, about male violence and male sexual predation, that needs to be named, faced and tackled - predominantly by men. It is still after all, predominantly men who are in power in this society.

Let's not take our eyes off the ball. The problem is predatory and violent men. They are the problem that requires a solution. If your son's fathers are decent people, they can see that and the need to campaign for real, meaningful change too. So that their sons and daughters can go about their lives safely, in comfort and with dignity.

What are the decent men doing about this problem with bad men?