Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

I have 2 sons one is now 13, and one is almost 8. The 13 year old wouldn't be able to fight off a grown man trying to sexually assault him, so my 8 year old wouldn't have a chance. I just wouldn't go to a pool with no family changing. I would not be comfortable with such a young child changing alone.
Strange that we are to send out 8 year old boys into changing rooms alone so as not to make women and girls uncomfortable, yet full grown men "identifying" as women can come into the women's changing rooms natter how uncomfortable it makes us.

I have two DS with learning disabilities. One is 7 and I'm very conscious of not taking him into the woman's changing room at our local leisure centre once he is past 8 (their cut off). We do have other leisure centres with family cubicles so do use these too but our local centre is the nearest.

So I asked at reception what we would need to do once he is this age to be told 'oh you can still take him in he can be an exception.' I'm not happy doing this though as it is not fair on the girls. So we will need to go elsewhere.

Strange that we are to send out 8 year old boys into changing rooms alone so as not to make women and girls uncomfortable, yet full grown men "identifying" as women can come into the women's changing rooms natter how uncomfortable it makes us.

You'll probably find that the vast majority of women aren't happy about that either.

[quote ImUninsultable]@Branleuse
I think you've misunderstood. Lots of posts so easy to do.

No one is saying they cant go swimming with their mums. Of course that's not doing anything wrong.

It's just that when they go into a women's changing room, which is a woman's space then well, they're in a woman's space. And the women and girls in there should expect to have privacy. That is lost when mums bring their 8/9/10 year olds into a communal changing area.
Girls shouldn't have to be naked in front of them. I cant actually believe that's something I need to defend.[/quote]
the little boy gets changed in a cubicle. If I am in a communal changing room it is not privacy. Its the opposite of private. its in front of loads of people who are all trying to be discreet and get changed under their towels. Its not a free for all of tits and fannys, and while I would not want boys that were at puberty or after it, then when its clearly still a young child who is being supervised by the mother and who is making an effort to be unobtrusive, then their status as a literal child of either sex, then their safety and supervision is important and if any adult expects another woman to send her little boy into the mens changing room then she is going to be disappointed by me. i cant help it if some people are mental

I see the problem with his using the women's changing room at his age -- but the trouble is that the men's changing room is not necessarily a pleasant place for a boy (or even for a non-jock male). Even aside from issues about safety, there are often a few overbuffed lads doing their jocky-lad bantz about last night's alpha-lad exploits . Totally oblivious or indifferent to the fact there are two or three fathers with children as young as three around.

My seven year old boy is a fairly gentle, non-athletic, imaginative play kind of kid and I can't imagine letting him change alone in the locker room before he's ten...and maybe not even then...

@Peggytheredhen

So, according to this thread, girls must change with their Mums away from potential predators, and boys must change by themselves with those potential predators.

And if we don't like it we can 'campaign'?

Or from the age of 8 everyone should change in the right changing room and not expect others to be happy with them doing otherwise.

It would be no more suitable for an 8 year old girl to go with her dad into the men’s changing rooms.

Young people need to learn boundaries and they need to learn that others have the right to dignity and privacy including single sex places to change when they are advertised as such.

So, according to this thread, girls must change with their Mums away from potential predators, and boys must change by themselves with those potential predators.

no. According this thread the Precious Boy Children must be allowed to change in girls' spaces and girls' must suck it up because they may as well get used to never being considered in anything. Ever.

I get it's difficult. Is anyone going to pick up on maybe the dads could take them?

The best solutions have been the onsies/bathrobe ones, although i guess in winter that's more difficult.

But the over all feeling in this thread, is that girls simply don't count. You were (mostly) all girls once. You have zero empathy now you have become the Mothers Of Precious Sons.

@Branleuse

Did you seriously just say that young girls dont count? They dont count? They dont deserve a space to change in without worrying that their male classmate will walk in.

Children dont count?

As a child psychologist, I can assure you that the privacy and dignity of children does count. Male and female. It counts.

You can tell your boys all about feminism until you're blue in the face... but it all goes out the window when you say young girls dont count.

The solution here is not for boys to use the women's changing. Find any other solution that makes you comfortable but that is off the table. It is not an option.

Children do count.

@CatJumperTwat

Just to clarify, you are fine about small boys changing on their own with potential predators?

Do you have a son?

The worst thing I ever saw was a grown man in the women's changing room with his daughters after a kids swimming lesson. Worse still he was with his wife but went in with them instead of waiting outside or taking them into the men's. Worse than that is I didn't confront him and tell him to leave which I was angry with myself for but at the time didn't want to cause a scene and imply that he was a paedo in front of everyone (I'd definitely speak up now). I did complain and an email went out to all parents about sex appropriate changing.

@toomuchlaundry

What do dads with daughters do in places like this?

My dad took me and my sisters swimming. We just changed alone. As far as I remember from junior school age.

@Branleuse

My 8 year old is only about 15cm shorter than I am. His shoe size is bigger than mine. He has broad shoulders. Always been built like a bit of a bulldozer really. Not chubby, just tall and broad across the shoulders.

What that be ok? Would you see him and think "young child with his mum"?

8 is the cut off. That's the end of it.

I’m sorry, I still think that the chances of a male paedophile hanging out in a swimming pool changing room and assaulting an unknown boy with other adults present are infinitesimally small. And even more so in what OP describes as a private gym that hosts swimming lessons, so will know the names and addresses of all people in there at any time. Not an ideal environment for random offending. Most child sexual abuse happens in the family home.

Whether or not that’s correct - and neither of us have any way of putting a statistic on it - this argument is used all the time to try and shut women up about male violence. Chill out love, it’s unlikely.

Whenever there’s a hideous abduction/rape/murder of a woman or girl by a stranger, there’s instant cries of how very rare this kind of offending is, and women are far more likely to be killed by someone they know. So it doesn’t matter and we don’t need to change anything, cos it’s rare, blah, blah.

If you’re familiar with the sex and gender debate, it comes up constantly there as well. Calm down dear, women are very unlikely to be assaulted by a male-bodied adults using their facilities, blah, blah (and if it does happen then you’re collateral damage).

The reality of male violence is that it’s a constant and ever-present risk to women and children and we shouldn’t downplay it if we want it to go away.

@Peggytheredhen

I'm a single parent to 2 boys. We usually swim at a pool with a unisex changing village so it isnt an issue. The other pool we use is men's and women's communal rooms.

They've been in the mens since they were 8. I stand outside. They shout to me every so often. It isnt ideal. But I will not send them into the women's because they are not women or girls and it isnt their space. Girls deserve privacy.

Or from the age of 8 everyone should change in the right changing room and not expect others to be happy with them doing otherwise.

But in doing this you're exposing young boys to a significant risk of coming into contact with sexual predators.

The right solution is clearly not for boys to change with girls, but please don't make out that parents are paranoid for not wanting to put their sons at risk of sexual assault.

@lottiegarbanzo

We're not projecting anything Branleuse. We are recognising girls' need for privacy and dignity.

My dd developed a sense of physical privacy and not wanting to change in front of men and boys at 6.

School swimming at 8 used separate changing rooms. Some of the boys tried to break into the girls' changing room - for motives best known to themselves. The girls stopped them. They did not find it funny or ok at all.

I am delighted that you do not make the rules.

handy then that this post is about a boy getting changed in cubicles. All of my kids wanted privacy more around 8 or 9, male and female.

If a swimming pool has no cubicles, just open changing rooms for men and women and nothing for families, then that needs to be changed, but if it doesnt, then lots of mothers will still keep little boys in with them. Its safety. Safety of children is clearly priority. Am I supposed to apologise for that? 8 year old boys are not predatory, nor do they want to see your middle aged butt. they want to get changed and get in the pool without being put at risk of being alone with adult male strangers in a changing room.

Yes yes to single sex facilities with exceptions for mothers looking after young prepubescent children by themselves. NO to demonising little boys fgs

im amazed that we are projecting adult mens sexual motives onto 8 year old boys.

Are people doing that? I get the impression that some mothers of sons on here are accusing unknown men of being predators. No doubt in about 10 years time they'll be back moaning about how unfair it is that their sons are all unfairly being considered as potential sexual predators.

Personally I trust all the men in my life not to be perverts because (so far) they've never given me cause to think that. But I still wouldn't want to get my kit off in front of them. I'm not overly fond of stripping naked in front of anyone apart from my DH TBH. It's definitely not just a sexual predator issue.

The over all feeling in this thread, is that girls simply don't count.

It's funny because I am getting the absolute opposite from this thread. And I have boys and girls.

Also, @Branleuse did not say girls don't count. She said, I believe without checking, that it was nuts for you to think a boy of eight is a safeguarding risk.

[quote ImUninsultable]@Branleuse

Did you seriously just say that young girls dont count? They dont count? They dont deserve a space to change in without worrying that their male classmate will walk in.

Children dont count?

As a child psychologist, I can assure you that the privacy and dignity of children does count. Male and female. It counts.

You can tell your boys all about feminism until you're blue in the face... but it all goes out the window when you say young girls dont count.

The solution here is not for boys to use the women's changing. Find any other solution that makes you comfortable but that is off the table. It is not an option.

Children do count.[/quote]
did I say young girls dont count????

The reality of male violence is that it’s a constant and ever-present risk to women and children and we shouldn’t downplay it if we want it to go away.

Yes - it's a risk to women. It's a risk to girls. It's also a risk to boys. Don't make out that parents are being unreasonable for not wanting to expose their boys to this risk.

I agree they need a solution which doesn't involve the female changing-room, though.

But no, it's not unreasonable to refuse to send boys into the men's. Even if it means changing outside or in the car.

8 year old boys are not predatory, nor do they want to see your middle aged butt

you never once mentioned the dignity of young girls. They don't get a look in here. Can't you see how fucking infuriating that is? the ONLY thing that matters is that your son (and you) get to do what you want and the girls can fuck off.

@Branleuse

No one is demonising little boys. It isnt about them.

It is about girls having privacy. That boy should not be in there. Because there are girls in there. It is their space, for them. Not for him.

Should an 8 year old girl be in that communal room changing infront of a male classmate? No.

It isnt a space for boys. If there is no other option then you put them in a onesie and you take them home to change properly.

@SausageSizzle

Or from the age of 8 everyone should change in the right changing room and not expect others to be happy with them doing otherwise.

But in doing this you're exposing young boys to a significant risk of coming into contact with sexual predators.

The right solution is clearly not for boys to change with girls, but please don't make out that parents are paranoid for not wanting to put their sons at risk of sexual assault.

Absolutely agree with this. Do little boys not deserve protection from potential predators then? Its not only women and girls who are sexually abused and raped. Young boys are just as much at risk from male predators as girls are.

Peggytheredhen Boys do not belong in the female changing rooms. If you think the male changing rooms are teeming with paedophiles then you find another solution. But you don't bring your boys into the female changing rooms.

[quote ImUninsultable]@Branleuse

Did you seriously just say that young girls dont count? They dont count? They dont deserve a space to change in without worrying that their male classmate will walk in.

Children dont count?

As a child psychologist, I can assure you that the privacy and dignity of children does count. Male and female. It counts.

You can tell your boys all about feminism until you're blue in the face... but it all goes out the window when you say young girls dont count.

The solution here is not for boys to use the women's changing. Find any other solution that makes you comfortable but that is off the table. It is not an option.

Children do count.[/quote]
omg, i couldnt remember saying "young girls dont count" and thats because I didnt say that.
This is what I said

Absolutely want single sex spaces for adults, but young children do not count in this as they are under the care of the parent that has brought them in